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Posted 10/30/2022 8:41 PM (GMT 0)
Just read this abx is 1 of the most effective along with gentamicin for bart stationary phase. I was given nitrofurantoin for a uti though? Wonder if this is why symptoms ramped up such as migraines, anxiety, and ocd? Has anyone tried the nitrofurantoin or gentamicin? If so any bad herx, success, or no go? How long did anyone last on it?
Posted 10/30/2022 9:24 PM (GMT 0)
gentamycin - is a decent drug for bart - not perfect but better than most - problem is it has risk of permanent deafness associated with its use - some LLMD's still prescribe it - but test blood levels weekly to try to reduce risk of hearing loss. not sure if that is a proven approach.

i have not seen any reliable research saying that nitrofurantoin is particularly effective for bart - there is research from Zhangs team at Johns Hopkins on a similar sounding drug - Nitroxoline - is that perhaps what you had in mind - its in-vitro research - but people are experimenting with it for bart in combination with other abx

if i recall you have tested positive for more than one infection and have been suffering an array of symptoms and sensitivities - this means symptoms could indeed flare when taking any antibiotic - perhaps some more than others.
nitrofurantoin is known for causing headaches as a side effect - so perhaps there is a link there.

there is one member on here who believes he had success with bart by adding other off label drugs to increase barts susceptibility to regular bart drugs
he believes this was achieved by
- inhibiting its efflux pumps
and
- by "waking bart up" from its persister cell state - so that it again becomes more susceptible to abx.
but if pressed i think that member would freely admit that these are personal theories created to explain their observations and we cannot know for sure what is actually happening.

overall i don't think you will find a magic abx for bart - so far the evidence is that bartonella's combination of:
>its intracellular nature ( abx reach lower concentrations inside cells),
>what seems like persister cell behaviour(Stationary phase cultures=much higher resistance to abx-zhang et al)
>and ability to clog up the microvasculature and protect itself from the immune system within fibrin deposits

means that no antibiotic works as a quick fix for bartonella - instead treatment is typically mufti-agent and long term.
Zhang's work highlights the most effective combinations to date - at least in vitro
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32276590/

many FDA drug screenings have been done - and these are what they have come up with

there are some natural substances that also have useful activity - eg oregano oil / carvacrol

but until someone designs a next generation drug specifically for bartonella (which is a v tall order due to approx $50M fda approval costs) - i dont think there will be a silver bullet

so the above are mainly what we have to work with - its natural to want something better, quicker, easier etc - and to want to believe that that exists and we just have to find it
but in treatment we have to deal with what is - rather than what we would like there to be
Posted 10/30/2022 9:39 PM (GMT 0)
i haven't heard of macrobid for bart ?in combo with something? garzy is very much right on many points ; zhangs work is the most recent/relevant . dr m, the bart guru , has some great utoob lectures on barts nature and behavior . way back ; a banned member had some good theorys and info about decalcification of barts biofilm structures using msm and chanca piedra , i used his dragons blood and cinnamon tincture technique to disrupt barts efflux pump with some success.

please dont take cipro for bart MN ! it has a black box warning of tendon rupture, i read of one case where some guy pushed past it thinking was bart in the connective tissue but deafness with gent sounds like a better option from here ...
Posted 10/30/2022 9:58 PM (GMT 0)
Nitrofurans can cause migraines/headaches by releasing nitric oxide in the brain.

Sunflower tried it in 2020 and talks about anxiety in her second post in this thread:
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4218893

There are 2 studies on nitrofurantoin for Bartonella but, although effective for stationary Bartonella, it doesn't do well against biofilms.

1). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc7149919/

2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc6628006/
Posted 10/30/2022 10:21 PM (GMT 0)
well done Rainy - the first paper is actually the same one of Zhang's i posted - but i hadn't realised nitrofurantoin was in the list - i think because others were more promising and stuck in my mind more
Posted 10/31/2022 2:04 AM (GMT 0)
I took Nitrofurantoin for UTI. For reasons I can’t figure out, it hit the bad bacteria in my intestines hard. The literature on the drug says “Nitrofurantoin is advantageous as it concentrates in the lower urinary tract while maintaining a low serum concentration and does not significantly affect bowel flora.” That’s why I couldn’t figure out why it hit my gut like a freight train.

Turned out my UTI test came back negative, but I have had recurring bouts of UTI symptoms ever since. D-mannose had zero effect. I read it only worked on e-coli, so either I had some bacteria other than e-coli or something other than bacteria.

What finally did help my UTI symptoms was a supplement called Cystistatin. Works every time. I keep a bottle on hand and take 2 at the first sign of symptoms.
Posted 10/31/2022 6:09 AM (GMT 0)

Garzie said...
gentamycin - is a decent drug for bart - not perfect but better than most - problem is it has risk of permanent deafness associated with its use - some LLMD's still prescribe it - but test blood levels weekly to try to reduce risk of hearing loss. not sure if that is a proven approach.

i have not seen any reliable research saying that nitrofurantoin is particularly effective for bart - there is research from Zhangs team at Johns Hopkins on a similar sounding drug - Nitroxoline - is that perhaps what you had in mind - its in-vitro research - but people are experimenting with it for bart in combination with other abx

if i recall you have tested positive for more than one infection and have been suffering an array of symptoms and sensitivities - this means symptoms could indeed flare when taking any antibiotic - perhaps some more than others.
nitrofurantoin is known for causing headaches as a side effect - so perhaps there is a link there.

there is one member on here who believes he had success with bart by adding other off label drugs to increase barts susceptibility to regular bart drugs
he believes this was achieved by
- inhibiting its efflux pumps
and
- by "waking bart up" from its persister cell state - so that it again becomes more susceptible to abx.
but if pressed i think that member would freely admit that these are personal theories created to explain their observations and we cannot know for sure what is actually happening.

overall i don't think you will find a magic abx for bart - so far the evidence is that bartonella's combination of:
>its intracellular nature ( abx reach lower concentrations inside cells),
>what seems like persister cell behaviour(Stationary phase cultures=much higher resistance to abx-zhang et al)
>and ability to clog up the microvasculature and protect itself from the immune system within fibrin deposits

means that no antibiotic works as a quick fix for bartonella - instead treatment is typically mufti-agent and long term.
Zhang's work highlights the most effective combinations to date - at least in vitro
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32276590/

many FDA drug screenings have been done - and these are what they have come up with

there are some natural substances that also have useful activity - eg oregano oil / carvacrol

but until someone designs a next generation drug specifically for bartonella (which is a v tall order due to approx $50M fda approval costs) - i dont think there will be a silver bullet

so the above are mainly what we have to work with - its natural to want something better, quicker, easier etc - and to want to believe that that exists and we just have to find it
but in treatment we have to deal with what is - rather than what we would like there to be

I just found the link 2nd paragraph down

https://bmcmicrobiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12866-020-01777-9
Posted 10/31/2022 10:21 AM (GMT 0)

bluelyme said...
i haven't heard of macrobid for bart ?in combo with something? garzy is very much right on many points ; zhangs work is the most recent/relevant . dr m, the bart guru , has some great utoob lectures on barts nature and behavior . way back ; a banned member had some good theorys and info about decalcification of barts biofilm structures using msm and chanca piedra , i used his dragons blood and cinnamon tincture technique to disrupt barts efflux pump with some success.

please dont take cipro for bart MN ! it has a black box warning of tendon rupture, i read of one case where some guy pushed past it thinking was bart in the connective tissue but deafness with gent sounds like a better option from here ...

Not only tendon rupture - but the black box warning says this:

WARNING: SERIOUS ADVERSE REACTIONS INCLUDING TENDINITIS, TENDON RUPTURE, PERIPHERAL NEUROPATHY, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM EFFECTS AND EXACERBATION OF MYASTHENIA GRAVIS
•
Fluoroquinolones, including Ciprofloxacin, have been associated with disabling and potentially irreversible serious adverse reactions…..”

There used to be a website - pages and pages - people who were seriously damaged by the fluoroquinolones - some improved after a long time - others didn’t.

That is one class of abx I won’t touch.
They are apparently the best for Bart but I managed to do well on Rifabutin plus others.

My MIL did have her tendon in her arm rupture.
Coincidentally she was on the fluoroquinolones for repeated uti and bladder infections.
Posted 10/31/2022 10:54 AM (GMT 0)
Here’s a website with testimonies from people who were damaged by Cipro, Levaquin …

Some recovered - others not.

Some people still do choose to take them.
They are apparently more effective for Bart.

I did decline them - Dr J was okay with it.
Posted 10/31/2022 5:34 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

bluelyme said...
i haven't heard of macrobid for bart ?in combo with something? garzy is very much right on many points ; zhangs work is the most recent/relevant . dr m, the bart guru , has some great utoob lectures on barts nature and behavior . way back ; a banned member had some good theorys and info about decalcification of barts biofilm structures using msm and chanca piedra , i used his dragons blood and cinnamon tincture technique to disrupt barts efflux pump with some success.

please dont take cipro for bart MN ! it has a black box warning of tendon rupture, i read of one case where some guy pushed past it thinking was bart in the connective tissue but deafness with gent sounds like a better option from here ...

Not only tendon rupture - but the black box warning says this:

WARNING: SERIOUS ADVERSE REACTIONS INCLUDING TENDINITIS, TENDON RUPTURE, PERIPHERAL NEUROPATHY, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM EFFECTS AND EXACERBATION OF MYASTHENIA GRAVIS
•
Fluoroquinolones, including Ciprofloxacin, have been associated with disabling and potentially irreversible serious adverse reactions…..”

There used to be a website - pages and pages - people who were seriously damaged by the fluoroquinolones - some improved after a long time - others didn’t.

That is one class of abx I won’t touch.
They are apparently the best for Bart but I managed to do well on Rifabutin plus others.

My MIL did have her tendon in her arm rupture.
Coincidentally she was on the fluoroquinolones for repeated uti and bladder infections.stabbing?

So nitrofurantoin can cause tendon rupture? Well, I already have worn down cartilage in my hips, arthritis plus Ehlors-Danlos Syndrome . So I don't need anymore muscle or tendon issues. I even asked then not to prescribe me nitrofurantoin because I felt bactrim worked so much better for me. Isn't bactrim used for bart?? Huh, weird nitrofurantoin didn't touch my uti barely but bactrim stopped it just like that. Maybe my intercystial cystitis or uti is bart effecting it and maybe that's why the bactrim worked so well? Hmmm I'm getting some ideas here 💡
Posted 10/31/2022 5:38 PM (GMT 0)

bluelyme said...
i haven't heard of macrobid for bart ?in combo with something? garzy is very much right on many points ; zhangs work is the most recent/relevant . dr m, the bart guru , has some great utoob lectures on barts nature and behavior . way back ; a banned member had some good theorys and info about decalcification of barts biofilm structures using msm and chanca piedra , i used his dragons blood and cinnamon tincture technique to disrupt barts efflux pump with some success.

please dont take cipro for bart MN ! it has a black box warning of tendon rupture, i read of one case where some guy pushed past it thinking was bart in the connective tissue but deafness with gent sounds like a better option from here ...

Wait cinnamon disrupt barts efflux pump?? What about cinnamon powder or capsules , are they just as effective as cinnamon oil? When I take cinnamon in my oatmeal or by capsule I start to sweat loads and my heart will sometimes pound faster. Can this indeed be a herx?!
Posted 10/31/2022 5:40 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Here’s a website with testimonies from people who were damaged by Cipro, Levaquin …

Some recovered - others not.

Some people still do choose to take them.
They are apparently more effective for Bart.

I did decline them - Dr J was okay with it.

I've been on cipro and my bodies so screwed up already for so long so I can't say it effected me In a bad way. I took cipro before I knew of any of these side effects and definitely don't want to play around with this stuff and risk it so I won't be taking it in the future.
Posted 10/31/2022 6:40 PM (GMT 0)

MedicalNerd said...

Wait cinnamon disrupt barts efflux pump?? What about cinnamon powder or capsules , are they just as effective as cinnamon oil? When I take cinnamon in my oatmeal or by capsule I start to sweat loads and my heart will sometimes pound faster. Can this indeed be a herx?!

The known mechanism of atovaquone is to inhibit the cytochrome bc1/b6f complex. This reduces the membrane potential and inhibits ATP production. As all known types of bacterial efflux pumps rely on either ATP or the proton gradient as a power source, and bartonella is not known to produce ATP by any means other than the citric acid cycle and cytochrome b, it can be inferred that atovaquone inhibits the efflux pumps of bartonella henselae. My personal experience was that taking mepron in combination with azithromycin or clarithromycin was effective against bartonella, whereas taking clarithromycin alone had failed to have much effect.

Cinnamaldehyde from cinnamon bark was found to have activity against stationary phase bartonella henselae in vitro.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31801196/

AFAIK these researchers did not determine the mechanism of action or whether or not cinnamaldehyde affected efflux pumps.

It has been widely observed by patients that certain substances seem to disturb dormant bartonella, causing the infection to become more active and aggressive. I don't know whether that could happen with cinnamon bark, but it's a potential risk you should be aware of.
Posted 10/31/2022 6:44 PM (GMT 0)
Forgot the link to the website
https://floxiehope.com/fluoroquinolone-recovery-stories/
Posted 10/31/2022 8:19 PM (GMT 0)
Medical

Nitrofurantoin does not cause tendon rupture.

Efflux pump inhibitor try fenbendazole (range 100mg to 250 mg daily).

I have been taking nitrofurantoin at 100mg daily for months (200mg is full daily dose for uti), prescribed for bart by my LLMD. No issues. Has helped with frequency/urgency problem I have, its much better but not gone.

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 11/1/2022 2:22:26 PM (GMT-7)

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