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Banderol herx or side effect

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Posted 12/1/2022 6:19 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Guys;

I'm new to the forum and would really appreciate your insights on Banderol. I did a search and found a lot of info but feel I still need to ask this question. I apologize if its a repeat.

I took 1.5 drops of Banderol (1 drop early in the day, followed by .5 drop later). Its the first time taking Banderol. It did help my neck pain/stiffness. That night I went to bed feeling tired but wonderfully relaxed (not normal).

The next day I could hardly get out of bed. I was extremely fatigued and felt like I actually had to think about breathing... if you know what I mean. I was in bed until noon. I was weak and fatigued until about 3:00 pm.

It did help my neck quite a bit but the aftermath is scaring me away from taking it again.

Do you think that was a herx or bad reaction?

Thanks - Joe
Posted 12/1/2022 9:40 AM (GMT 0)

JoeT said...
Hi Guys;

I'm new to the forum and would really appreciate your insights on Banderol. I did a search and found a lot of info but feel I still need to ask this question. I apologize if its a repeat.

I took 1.5 drops of Banderol (1 drop early in the day, followed by .5 drop later). Its the first time taking Banderol. It did help my neck pain/stiffness. That night I went to bed feeling tired but wonderfully relaxed (not normal).

The next day I could hardly get out of bed. I was extremely fatigued and felt like I actually had to think about breathing... if you know what I mean. I was in bed until noon. I was weak and fatigued until about 3:00 pm.

It did help my neck quite a bit but the aftermath is scaring me away from taking it again.

Do you think that was a herx or bad reaction?

Thanks - Joe

Welcome to the forum.

My guess is it was a herx.
How are you feeling now?

If I were you - I’d wait a few more days and try again - but maybe just one dose - a drop and see how you feel.
Posted 12/1/2022 6:10 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks so much for the reply!

The second day after the possible herx event I felt really pretty good. But the third day the symptoms began creeping back. Overall, my neck is better than before taking the Banderol. However, what is a bit troubling it at the time of the event I also had a shaky anxious feeling (haven't really had that before). That feeling still remains at a low level. So it scares me that the Banderol may be harmful in some way? Man, it's so hard sometimes to judge a herx from a side effect. This is my first attempt at herbs.

Thank You again!
Joe
Posted 12/1/2022 8:07 PM (GMT 0)
Hi JoeT

in case you are feeling you are having some rare or dangerous reaction.

it might be useful to know we have had quite a few members here describe surprising strong reactions to antimicrobial herbs in tiny doses.

often the doses involved, like in your case, a single drop or two of a tincture, are outrageously small -
too small in fact to be a true toxicity - and more likely to be some kind of immune modulated phenomenon

it seems to be a relatively common thing in this population ( lyme and co )
bartonella in particular seems to be associated with this type of effect
as does MCAS type reactions - or general sensitivity to any form of treatment/supplement/herbs etc

i have tried and continue to use many herbs in my own treatment
i was moderately sensitive myself - not quite to your level - but would have to start on say 1/20th of target dose and gradually work my way up in dose in small increments over many weeks
this is possible - and over time the reactions became less and less - and improvements started to appear
now i tolerate full dose of many herbs taken together.

low and slow is often the only way - it can be frustrating as we all want to get on and get well - but if your body cannot tolerate it you have relatively few other options

all the best
Posted Yesterday 5:02 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Garzie;

Thank You so much for your insights!

It's been 5 days now since I took the Banderol and I have to say, although the strange reaction hung around in a mild form for a couple of days, the Banderol did help my symptoms quite a bit.

I'm going to try again at a much lower dose. Fingers crossed!
Thanks Again for taking the time to reply!
Joe
Posted 12/7/2022 11:00 PM (GMT 0)
Just an update..
First to be clear, I'm using Otoba Bark from Dr. Marty Ross' website. His site said it is a direct replacement for Nutramedix Banderol as it has the same ingredient. However, I may change to nutramedix Banderol to see if there is a difference.

Anyway,
I waited 5 days then took just a single gulp of otoba bark (I dropped 1 single drop into 1/2 glass water, took one gulp and poured the remainder down the drain). Surprisingly, that helped my symptoms. I skipped the next day as I felt a bit wiped out. Then I did a single gulp for three days in a row. It actually helped quite a bit.

However, I then developed the need to urinate much more than normal. It feels wrong, although I have been concentrating on drinking more water but I don't think that's it. This does not occur if I do not take the Otoba bark.

Anyone else experience the feeling and need to urinate more often on Otoba Bark (Banderol)?

Thanks! Joe
Posted 12/7/2022 11:25 PM (GMT 0)
Hi JoeT,
Welcome to the forum, although I'm sorry you have a need to be here.

What you experience is commonly called a "herx", which is short for a Herhiemer reaction, or the scientific name is a Jarrisch-Herxhiemer reaction. This is due to the die-off of bacteria and the neurotoxins that are released from the dying bacteria. What you need to do is to start detoxing, if you aren't already. If you are already detoxing using some of the methods in the following link, then you need to increase the amount of detoxing you are doing.

https://www.tiredoflyme.com/detox-methods.html

There are a handful of sites that now have good detoxing ideas for those with tick-borne infections though. This is one of the better ones IMHO.

Keep going slow and low on your doses. Each body needs different levels of support/treatment to overcome these infections and the effects of treatment.
Posted 12/8/2022 1:59 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for your help Traveler!

I have experienced herxes before but they always just involved pain and fatigue (while on Antibiotics).
Are you saying the need to urinate more often is a herx as well?

Thanks again! Joe

Post Edited (JoeT) : 12/7/2022 6:07:52 PM (GMT-8)

Posted 12/8/2022 2:55 PM (GMT 0)
Frequent urination can be a sign of mold exposure or excess toxins coming out through the urine.
Posted 12/8/2022 7:55 PM (GMT 0)
One of the oddest things about these infections and treating them - any symptom can be from these infections and herxing. Unfortunately, that leaves things very confusing at times. The only way to confirm that it was part of a herx is to repeat the situation exactly. I don't know if that's what you want to do or not - but my curiosity always got the better of me and I had to repeat things to know that's what was really going on! Sometimes it wasn't worth it (a hard herx happened) or I just wasn't going to go through that again (!!), but usually it was something small that I wanted confirmed. LOL.

Just a note though - taking one dose of any herb doesn't do anyone much good, even if it does produce a herx. A herx means it's working, and as long as the herxing isn't bad or long-term, usually it's tolerated. We see this as the path to healing - although the goal should always be to keep herxing to a very minimum as herxing is damaging to the body. Herbs need to be taken at least weeks to get much benefit, as they work with the body, rather than like a bazooka, and can be the only way for many of us to heal (slow approach). They work more slowly, but often more effectively, as they don't target just one microbe at a time.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck though!
Posted 12/28/2022 12:29 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks Traveler and everyone else!

Sorry for the delayed response but I thought I would receive an email if there were any responses and I've not been online for a couple of weeks. Here's an update for anyone following this thread:

One thing about me is I'm really super sensitive to meds and herbs etc. So, I always start way low on dosage.
Also, note, during this time I believe I was drinking about 5 16oz glasses of water a day as a local practitioner advised me to drink half my body weight in water per day). Would the following have happened if I was only drinking 3 glasses of water a day?? Who knows..

So, I tried the following (I may be off by a bit but this is pretty close)

Day1: One drop of Cats Claw in a glass of water - it hit me pretty hard so I decided to put it aside and try the otoba bark the next day instead.

Day2: 1 and 1/2 drops Otoba bark. This is the night I urinated like crazy and the next morning I was completely wiped out. It did, however, help my symptoms so I wanted to keep using it at a lower dose.

Day3 - Day7: skip - do not take Otoba Bark

Day8 through Day 10: One gulp of Otoba Bark (put one drop in 1/2 glass of water and drink just one gulp. (it helped my symptoms. I was still urinating more than usual and had some pain in the nether regions.

Okay, I get a full blood test and urine test every 4 months with my LLMD. Every test has always been normal and I was only on ABX no herbs.

Day11: take my 4 month blood test and urine test. The test comes back with a really high Creatine number with wording that I had stage 3 Chronic Kidney disease. Also, my red blood cell count was slightly abnormal indicating anemia. (Note: my urine was almost completely clear when I took the test. Never saw it like that.. it looked close to water.)

I was totally freaked out and told my doc about the excessive urination and can we wait three weeks and retest. That's what we did and that test came back all normal (I had stopped the herbs). I then did some more research and found one guy (out of hundreds of positive reviews..) in an amazon review indicating that he was on cats claw and otoba bark for 3 months and his kidney numbers were way off so he discontinued.

I don't want to alarm anyone and I may be a very unique case. However, I thought it important to share this in case anyone else is experiencing frequent urination.

I'm happy things came back to normal but am bummed I can't use those herbs as I do believe they would help my symptoms.

Thanks everyone!
Joe

Post Edited (JoeT) : 12/27/2022 4:53:02 PM (GMT-8)

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