Anyone cure lifelong bartonella infection?

I only herxed from Heat in my First 3 weeks. I find that quite odd. Even in my Treatment pause i only feel maybe a Bit dizzy from Heat but Not that even...

Maybe its the co-infections I'm battling now

It's my personal experience. The symptoms that flare-up are bartonella specific.

I read on treatlyme.net that fluconazole can work against bartonella. Anyone have any experience with it?

Post Edited By Moderator (Garzie) : 7/23/2023 8:24:05 AM (GMT-8)

BlazerGermany said...
for those who have treated with cinnamon clove and oil of oregano: what are your dosages?

i have 1g of cinnamon (no extract) , 500mg of Clove and Essential Oil of Oregano in a Bottle.

i have thought about 1,5g cinnamon , 1g clove and 1 drop of oregano oil daily (its strong)

from memory Dr MR gave doses that were around 150mg of oil of oregano a day and about the same of cinnamon and clove oil combined

but i found getting close to this dose of O o O alone (alongside herbs and bromelain and MB) difficult and my heart pain issues flared ( i think from inflammation due to die off ) maybe i should have continued but it was pretty extreme and i got a bit worried and stopped

i know you have been having heart symptoms also - so if you do use them i would say go v gradually - and be prepared to back off again

Hi Vimzor & Garzie,

Yes I've been following one of Dr. MR's protocols since December last year (2022). It includes Fluconazole 200mg daily.

I definitely feel like it is a great medication for Bartonella. It came to be because they were studying a different -azole in a Bartonella study and found out that it was very effective against Bartonella.

However, there was a reason why that one couldn't be taken, I think it wasn't an oral medication or something else. So, Dr. MR and other physicians started trying the other -azoles in their clinic like Fluconazole, Itraconazole etc. and found them to be effective.

I would definitely recommend reading the leaflet though for side effects, because it can lower several minerals in your body. I found this out after the fact, when my potassium and sodium were too low. So now I just supplement those daily. I would do it first thing in the morning because it depletes it pretty rapidly.

It's been great for me because I can't tolerate the Rifampins...

I have made progress on it and some days I feel like it's significant progress. However, there are also days where I feel like something is missing or that I'm stuck. So as with all of us, it can be confusing.

This however, could be many things, like possibly a missing Babesia diagnosis or something else. I've been trying to get tested for Babesia but it's been a long progress with many things going wrong. Hopefully I'll get it done soon.

I hope both of you are doing well.

Thank you 🙂

bongomongo said...
Schill def. - : one who makes a sales pitch or serves as a promoter.

It's clear that there is a lot of antibiotic promotion in here with talk of Dr. J , Dr. MR , Dr. H, Dr, SP, etc. Those guys all use an antibiotic sledgehammer so you get all the side effects that go with that. BTW Dr. MR has a long history of promoting junk he doesn't understand but it's nice of him to compile it in a book for convenience. At least Dr. H had the insight to use a drug that deals with the vascular conditions that the lyme complex causes, Dapsone. Although Dapsone also has a detrimental side. I was just waiting for him to break out the Methotrexate.

When you use antibiotics and promote them what you are doing is contributing to the zooinosis that will help end us all.
https://www.caryinstitute.org/our-expertise/freshwater/pharmaceutical-pollution/investigating-superbugs-caused-antibiotic
"Investigating ‘Superbugs’ Caused by Antibiotic Pollution"

As well the desire to have a product means that antibiotics are based on crappy science.

All the good medicines come from nature. But you have to support understanding of natural medicines with microbiology not what herbalists per se would say.

I see, well,... Dr. MR closed his practice and he's the only one mentioned in this thread, so I'm not sure that I understand why we would be "shilling" for him.

I agree that in an ideal world every person with Lyme could be cured by taking herbs and for some people it most definitely can, but that isn't the case for everyone.

Admittedly, the same can be said for antibiotics and I do understand your concern about superbugs.

And you're right there's also definitely a lot of bad science out there but I don't think it's accurate to say that the idea antibiotics work is solely based on that. There have, in fact, been plenty of people reaching remission with them.

In the end I would think it's safe to say we're all just here to get better, one way or the other. I wish the same for you.

Dear friends,

thank you for your posts in this tread. I ve been suffering from Lyme/Bart and I m taking Basic Buhner herbs, plus Cinamon+clove+Oregano oil and plus Claritro/Azitro + Minocycline and I was helped by explanation of effects and benefits of atovaquone that seems to be close to plaquenil I m taking with mino. I m however taking only 200mg per day, I hope it still does its job.

Still I m having two question, can a dull pain in the brain, eyes and in joints and muscles, lasting for few hours, be a herx? Pain giving excess of irritability, sort of nervousness without any reason... All the best and good luck to all

Bhava123 said...
thank you for your posts in this tread. I ve been suffering from Lyme/Bart and I m taking Basic Buhner herbs, plus Cinamon+clove+Oregano oil and plus Claritro/Azitro + Minocycline and I was helped by explanation of effects and benefits of atovaquone that seems to be close to plaquenil I m taking with mino. I m however taking only 200mg per day, I hope it still does its job.

Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine) is a bit different than atovaquone. The mechanism of action of hydroxychloroquine on malaria is not completely understood, but it is thought to interfere with breakdown of hemoglobin. Since bartonella similarly takes hemoglobin from red blood cells, hydroxychloroquine could work on bartonella too.

One major side effect of hydroxychloroquine is its long-term immunosuppression, which somewhat limits its use.

bongomongo said...

“we actually never had antibiotics capable of eradicating an infection. All pathogens produce a small subpopulation of dormant persister cells that are highly tolerant to killing by antibiotics. Once an antibiotic concentration drops, surviving persisters re-establish the population, causing a relapsing chronic infection.”

Borrelia does form persisters as described, but I've had success with drugs like valproate and valacyclovir, which interfere with ATP production and DNA repair, as the persisters are unable to avoid this. Persister cells actually increase DNA repair activity, which seems to increase susceptibility to acyclovir, and I suspect this is why this drug is so effective at killing borrelia.

Bartonella is a bit different. Bartonella has a requirement for iron and heme which it takes from red blood cells. Unlike borrelia, bartonella cannot remain in a dormant state forever. Eventually it will have to attack the red cells again. I've found that messing with its metabolism (eg with valproate) gets it to come out and attack the red blood cells, and this makes it easy to kill with antibiotics.

RainyCloud said...
Thanks for the heads up bongomongo.

Just curious, are you deleting your own posts? You had several in this thread and they are all gone.

You also posted that we are all "shills"? I'm not sure why you would say that.

I think this guy is just trolling.

Ritonavir works against Bartonella? When I was taking Paxlovid some of my Bartonella symptoms lessened. I thought it was the immune boosting effect of ritonavir.

If bartonella is resistant to clarithromycin, would azithromycin still work? Or are they too similar?

Vimzor said...
If bartonella is resistant to clarithromycin, would azithromycin still work? Or are they too similar?

they are in the same class and act on the same mechanism so you would expect anything resistant to one would be resistant to the other - but in practices it doesn't always seem to be the case.

in any case - i would not worry about resistance too much

Dr M the bart guru treats all his patients with clarithro and rifampicin - or sometimes rifabutin ( same class and mechanism as rifampicin) the large majority seem to get better

bartonella treatment is just typically long whichever drugs you choose - which could lead some people to assume its resistant - but if the guy who treats 1000's of Bart patients almost never finds the need to change to other antibiotic - i think that's a fair indication that true antimicrobial resistance in humans is rare - and its likely that this slow response is just a part of the nature of the disease.

bartonella is intracellular
- it lives inside red blood cells, white blood cells and cycles in and out of endothelial cells where it might be protected from antibiotics to a large degree
- and seems to form both persister cells
- and (recent evidence suggests) biofilms too
these characteristics are all a good fit with a slow response to antibiotics.

but a slow response due to the bacteria's chosen lifestyle is not the same as genetic mutation leading to complete antimicrobial resistance.

other slow growing intracellular infections also take 12 months or more of combination antibiotics
eg tuberculosis and leprosy - so bartonella fits the pattern pretty well

no disrespect to Quin and his experiences or theories intended - theirs is as valid an experience as any of us have - and i am happy that they shares it along with their theories of why it might be working for them.

But it is more of an N=1 trial and i think he would agree that we don't know how generalisable that is to the rest of the population.
so i am just giving another perspective as i think there is enough info out there that points to true genetic antimicrobial resistance of bartonella being rare.
And i think you already have enough worries without getting caught up in more over antimicrobial resistance.

to me it seems more likely that the explanation why some people recover and others do not is more to do with individual differences in immune system function rather than things like antimicrobial resistance.
ie the people who take every drug combination under the sun and are still sick - likely have more severe immune system dysfunction and cannot clear whatever is left of the infections that the antibiotics cannot kill.