HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Babesia - Dr Lindner Interview

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 11/5/2023 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
Sorry if this has already been posted. I just saw this interview from Project Lyme on YouTube. I found this interview very interesting and informative. This was recorded Dec 6, 2022. Video is 51 minutes.

https://youtu.be/i19uaorbcwe?si=tflkn2uu79acoj5u

Dr. Lindner talks about testing, treatment, herxes, and his impression of Wayne Anderson’s descriptions of babesia and bartonella. He talks about Babesia odocoilei vs microti, duncani.

Lots of interesting tidbits I gathered. He said:
- bartonella is immune suppressive; if a patient gets this first, they may not have much symptoms after getting babesia
- babesia and bartonella cause the chronic illness, rather than Lyme
- he is unsure if babesia can ever be cured (fully cleared) because of how it sequesters in fibrin deposits
- babesia causes herxes, including marked psychiatric symptoms; treatment needs to be ramped up to be effective (which can cause more herxes)
- treatment that is too weak will cause the patient to have chronic, long-term herxing without ever getting better
Posted 11/5/2023 4:48 PM (GMT 0)
For anyone interested, here is Wayne Anderson’s descriptions of the various infections. I like his descriptions more than any others, because he describes the experiences of the symptoms the way a patient would rather than using a list of words or phrases.

https://www.lymedisease.org/members/lyme-times/special-issues/lyme-book-reviews/strasheim-lyme-disease-treatment/
Posted 11/5/2023 5:22 PM (GMT 0)
we did discuss this one before - but its worth watching again

Lindner seems like a smart guy

he got into lyme and babesia and bartonella because his daughter had them and no one was able to help her. so another mainstream doctor who kind a got dragged in by trying to help a relative

he favours standard thin blood smears of capillary blood from an earlobe for diagnosis of babesia and says he finds this reliable

he seems a bit unusual in that he seems to be all the way over to the extreme end of LLMD's and other advocates - in believing that babesia is the dominant infection

its very hard to unpick if this is really the case - especially if the 3B's are all in evidence - another voice and view is welcome - but how would we know?
there are others that think its critical to treat all 3 to get better - eg Dr J - and we know relapses or failure to reach remission are much more likely if a person has bartonella or Babesia as well as lyme (ref horowitz and his published dapsone studies) but this is a much less extreme view of babesia's role
Posted 11/5/2023 5:43 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for your thoughts, Garzie. I had the impression that his views are definitely shaped by his personal experience with his daughter. I also wonder if mold has played a part in his daughter’s illness based on his description of her symptoms and that she has not been cured by long term babesia treatment. My blunt, immediate impression was that she sounds like someone who needs to be tested for mold and treated for CIRS with Cholestyramine to see if that helps her at all. That kind of unrelenting fatigue is the crux of CIRS. I actually don’t have that kind of disabling fatigue (thank God), even though I have mold illness.

Interestingly, I found Alinia (which I believe has some action against babesia) to be the most symptom relieving treatment I have done in terms of muscle fatigue/endurance.
Posted 11/5/2023 5:45 PM (GMT 0)
Oh, one other very interesting comment he made was that babesia can cause unrelenting constipation or IBS (back and forth between constipation and diarrhea). He also said babesia can cause urinary tract symptoms.
Posted 11/5/2023 5:50 PM (GMT 0)
yeah, there are a lot of factors overlapping - making multiple mechanisms possible for those that do not recover after even protracted abx.
as you say it could be mold
but equally it could jkust be that the effectsof say bartonella or babesia in that particular person render thier immune systems so disabled that even with long courses of abx - the infections never get beaten back quite enough
i think the immune systems role in reaching remission is undervalued by most LLMDs and Patients
its one of the reasons i like Dr J's approach - he specifically considers the immune system as the key - and treatment is targeted at getting it to the stage where it can take over - rather than focussing only on just killing bugs

all that said - if there is some blocking factor - which prevents this - which mold could very well do ( we know mold can suppress the immune system - as some pharma immune suppressing drugs are just purified mold toxins ) then this could be a cause of treatment failure.
Posted 11/6/2023 8:39 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you for the summary WalkingbyFaith
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply