Non-abx herx and lyme defence mechanism's

Hi Bhava!
I believe that it would be individual to the herb what the bacteria does with it. It takes experimenting and research to figure out what works. How long are you taking abx at a time?

A lot of people use a combination of abx, antimicrobial herbs, and biofilm/cyst busters. Are you seeing an LLMD/LLND?

I hope it helps! I'm fairly new to doing my own research, the one thing I would say is biofilm busters like xylitol seem to help a lot of people, myself included. Are you working on restoring your gut microbiome?

hi Bhava

your question is actually several questions because each bacterial persistence mechanisms is different

Biofilms - lyme and co-infections organisms form biofilms with or without the presence of antimicrobials - rather than form them in reaction to antimicrobials - so anyone infected will have biofilms.
some antibiotics and some herbs have anti-biofilm actions as well as antibacterial actions
this can be via a number of mechanisms - eg
- anti-chorum sensing effects - eg disrupting the signalling between bacteria in biofilms
- interfering with protein and ECM production - hindering the colonies from forming more biofilm
- direct antimicrobial action on persister forms - highly associated with biofilm

reduced metabolic activity - is really just another name for persister cells - ie cells which are interacting with chemicals in their environment very little and growing very little - and as a result the pathways that most antibiotics / or herbs - target are not being used - and this renders the organisms 1000-1.500 times less susceptible to antimicrobials - note - most biofilms are made up of a high proportion of persister cells.

it is still often misunderstood that biofilms are less susceptible to antimicrobials because they were thought to presen a physical barrier preventing or slowing down the infiltration of antimicrobials into the colonies - and people thought or assumed this why biofilms protect organism from antimicrobials
this was demonstrated to be a false assumption back in the 1970's by Dr Bill Casterton and his team - antibiotic enter biofilms quickly and easily - however, since most of the cells there are persister cells - they can tolerate 1000 times higher antibiotic concentrations than their free swimming brothers and sisters - and this is the real reasons bacteria in biofilms are so hard to kill

some drugs and likely some herbs have greater effects on biofilm associated persister cells than others
this is still under-researched - but typically a combination of antibiotics known to work on persister cells are used - eg rifampicin, dapsone, etc - in combination with drugs that work on faster growing organism - like doxycycline etc
v little research exists on which herbs work best on persister cells - or how exactly they do this - (herbs cannot be patented and monetised - so there is little funding to do such research) but it seems very likely that some plants will have evolved antimicrobial chemicals that act on persister state bacteria - and some of the stronger antimicrobial herbs like Cryptolepis are likely to have a anti-persister cell effect.

powerful antimicrobial essential oils like clove, cinnamon and oregano are also likely to have activity against persister cells - we have some in vitro studies for the efficacy of these against biofilms - and anecdotal use by patients and LLMDs that support this use in persister cell forming infections - like Lyme and Bartonella

lyme is the main bacteria in the lyme and co-infections group known to form cysts - its known these cysts or "round body forms" are formed more readily in the presence of and in reaction to some substances - for example doxycycline - so this is one phenomenon where the organism does react to the presence of the chemical -- but this seems to be a specific effect of some substances and not others - and little research exists on the propensity of specific herbs to do the same.

some bacteria - like lyme will also tend to produce a higher proportion of persister cells if exposed to non-lethal doses of antimicrobials - they are known to have some sensing apparatus that samples the environment around them - and directs them to high growth when conditions allow - but v slow growth when nutrients are low, temperatures unsuitable, chemical environment unsuitable or toxic etc.

this is also how they are able to sense that the environment is favourable again - eg when a person stops taking antibiotics - and faster growth can be enabled again. however a proportion of the population is always in persister cell state. Many common bacteria have this same behaviour - eg E. coli

ref immune suppression by pharmaceuticals - this is due to several mechanisms
- some antibiotics are directly quite strongly anti-inflammatory - and inflammation is essentially activation of the immune system - hence if one suppresses inflammation one is limiting the immune system in some way - not usually enough to stop the antibiotics from helping - but there is some effect
- there is also typically reduction of circulating white blood cells during antibiotic use - this may simply because having killed or disabled many bacteria with abx - the immune system now has to mop up all the debris and dead and dying bacteria - and in doing so many white blood cells will die off and be broken down - leaving less circulating than normal - Dr's who use a pulsing approach do so to give the immune system a chance to recover in between pulses for this reason

again many herbs are also anti-inflammatory - and any that kill many bacteria and cause herx will be expected to have a similar effect on the white blood cells - but for whatever reason these effects seem to be somewhat less pronounced with herbs than with pharmaceuticals

people who have been ill for years with lyme ad co - and particularly if there are other persister cell forming bacterial present like bartonella will often need regimens with 2 or more persister cell drugs in them over extended periods of time - many months or even 2-3 years - to reach remission

pulsing can also be used to help the immune system to recapitulate and keep the infection under control ( no drug or herbs will kill every last bacteria - so this is something that has to happen if the patient is to reach remission)

some LLMDs - eg Dr J - use a maintenance approach after active treatment - where a short pulse of 3 abx including a persister cell drug is given 3-4 days each month for an extended period to help keep the infection under control while the immune system strengthens and takes over - when the patient no longer reacts to these short pulses with herxhiemer / worsening symptoms- they can be extended to 5 weeks - 6 weeks - 2 months - an finally stopped altogether

i hope its of some help

OK that's about 6 questions but i will do my best

Bhava123 said...

1."but for whatever reason these effects seem to be somewhat less pronounced with herbs than with pharmaceuticals" Does it mean that strong herbs therapy also lessen or go against IS, perhaps in a similiar way to Abx? Is there any immunology test that can track or show the strenght/weakness of IS during the treatment, that can be taken into account? Does CD 57+ testing play any role in it?

the immune system is often talked about as if its a single thing with a single measure - but its way more complex than that - it consists of neuronal tissue controlling the system - dozens of chemical signalling molecules called cytokines and chemokines - dozens of different cells types each with different receptors and reactions to those signalling chemicals - so there is no single measure of its fitness or level.
i dont think science fully understands it workings yet
what we tend to see is for different purposes one of more of these signalling chemicals can be measured - or cell types counted and something inferred from this
but its only an inference and there are many unknown variables
the CD57+ is just a count of how many of one of these specialist white cell types there are in a given volume of blood
this cell is a part of the innate immune response

there are GENERAL mechanism by which antimicrobials may suppress the immune system to some degree - which all antimicrobial substances will do - for instance all substances that kill or injure bacteria will cause white blood cells to consume the dead or dying bacteria and these cells will then die off - likely faster than they can be replaced.
both herbs and antibiotics will do this

and there are SPECIFIC mechanisms - where, for instance, some chemicals lower or raise immune signalling chemicals or block their signals from interacting with cells - some antibiotics are known to be anti-inflammatory in this way - and block inflammation to some degree in the body - and inflammation is activation of the immune system - and so some antibiotics - and quite likely some herbs - lower immune response by blocking immune signalling. but these effects are specific to each antibiotic - or herb

typically we know more about which antibiotics do this because they are tested extensively before being approved - whereas less data is available on herbs - since no drug company is paying for such extensive trails - because herbs cannot be patented - so, due to lack trials providing evidence, one could form the opinion that this doesn't happen with herbs - but absence of data is not proof of absence of effect - so we cannot assume it doesn't happen with herbs also.

Bhava123 said...

2. The maintenance approach you are mentioning, is typically used when a patient does not response with Herx reaction any longer? If Abx are used only for 3-4 days in a pulsing way, isnt there a danger of L and Co creating resistance ? (eg with Abx it is generally said to complete full dosage and not to stop or interrupt)...

Thank you once again, all the best
B

firstly scientists have not been able to cause borrelia to form antimicrobial resistant mutants in the lab in their antimicrobial resistance testing models.
in addition 3 antibiotics are used in combination in these protocols - this is done to prevent resistance from forming in other infections that are known to form resistance to single antibiotics.
(this is done in conventional medicine for other slow growing chronic infections - eg TB)

these chronic infections are slow growing - so many LLMD's use pulsed combination antibiotic approaches -

the general guidelines for acute lyme are not relevant for chronic lyme - as once the chronic stage is reached its a much more complex disease that requires a different approach - either very long term combination antibiotics - or long term pulsed antibiotics.

yes broadly - patients on Dr J's pulsing program are treated until their herx reactions are very little or none - then go on maintenance - i he has some other measures but has not published them in detail as far as i know.

That's very interesting astroman and you make a great point: most of us never knew our baseline.

Bhava123 said...
Dear Garzie,

thank you for your kind and again very useful answer. My experience is that with Abx or strong herbs sooner or later herx subsides. But then, in the period of not taking Abx, symptoms typically re-occur after 3 weeks. I m thinking to go on with pulsing therapy after my current herx will be over.

I m quite surprised how our friends spirochettes can re-grow and with die-off give such a pain, weakness, all the difficulties related with herx. But anyway I m hoping to find a way to break through relapse - any I can only do guess and try approach or try and error - and learn what might work. I know there has been some nice references on combinations of abx and possible ways of applying pulsing therapy, I hope it will give me a good guidance.

Best wishes and good luck, B

The fact that herx subsides doesn't mean that abx or herbs have stopped working, it means that there are less bugs available for the killing. You just have to give them time.

Careful with pulsing therapy, bartonella and babesia replicate every day, whereas borrelia replicates every 3 to 4 weeks. Leaving bartonella and babesia without abx for several days might cause them to regrow.