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Posted 3/4/2024 2:59 PM (GMT 0)
Is arthritis something that comes along with lyme disease?

I am 42 years old, and I have started having pain in my fingers. I am starting to notice a hard growth in the joint of my index finger. My mother has a similar hard growth on her fingers and she says that it is arthritis.

I am wondering if this is arthritis. It's going to be a problem, because I need to use my hands for physical labor.
Posted 3/4/2024 3:27 PM (GMT 0)
That sounds like osteoarthritis. (I believe rheumatoid arthritis is less likely to cause the hard bumps.) It also could be a ganglion or septic cyst, but if you have pain in other fingers, then I would assume arthritis. Arthritic symptoms are common with Lyme but also without Lyme, so it's hard to say whether it's related for you or not, especially given the family history. My family history is strong for arthritis, so while I'm hitting some new joint pain symptoms with antimicrobials just in case, I am preparing myself mentally for regular old arthritis. I'm 41.

Some arthritis remedies I have compiled into a list recently:
prolotherapy
prolozone therapy
physical therapy
herbs (Solomon's seal, curcumin/turmeric, ginger,
CBD or cannabis
acupuncture
arnica
essential oils (especially frankincense)
Topricin, Penetrex, Tiger Balm
frequency-specific microcurrent
glucosamine
SAMe
muscadine, pineapple, rosemary
green tea
hyaluronic acid
astaxanthin
vitamin D
omega 3 fatty acids

And then obviously also NSAIDs and other pain drugs.
Posted 3/4/2024 3:43 PM (GMT 0)
I had a lot of muscle and tendon pain with stiff joints (whole body) before treating tick infections, but no lumps/bumps in my joints. I'm also thinking those are something else in addition.

My joint pain was from uneven tendon and muscle tension. When its even, joints are not pulled to one side or the other, they are centered as they should be, thus less friction / less pain. Lyme itself has been proven to "calcify" tendons per some eastern university studies. I seemed to reverse a good deal of it with manual therapy.

Its 75% improved, ( but will get a little worse at times when my thyroid levels are off).
Posted 3/4/2024 4:29 PM (GMT 0)

saraeli said...
That sounds like osteoarthritis. (I believe rheumatoid arthritis is less likely to cause the hard bumps.) It also could be a ganglion or septic cyst, but if you have pain in other fingers, then I would assume arthritis. Arthritic symptoms are common with Lyme but also without Lyme, so it's hard to say whether it's related for you or not, especially given the family history. My family history is strong for arthritis, so while I'm hitting some new joint pain symptoms with antimicrobials just in case, I am preparing myself mentally for regular old arthritis. I'm 41.

Some arthritis remedies I have compiled into a list recently:
prolotherapy
prolozone therapy
physical therapy
herbs (Solomon's seal, curcumin/turmeric, ginger,
CBD or cannabis
acupuncture
arnica
essential oils (especially frankincense)
Topricin, Penetrex, Tiger Balm
frequency-specific microcurrent
glucosamine
SAMe
muscadine, pineapple, rosemary
green tea
hyaluronic acid
astaxanthin
vitamin D
omega 3 fatty acids

And then obviously also NSAIDs and other pain drugs.

Yes, I think you're right. I think it is osteoarthritis. On the wikipedia page, it says that Lyme disease can be a factor.

This is going to be a problem, due to my strenuous occupation. I had a finger injury awhile ago, that never healed, and now I have to avoid using my index finger in my work. Although, I think it's starting to spread to my other adjacent fingers.

I have tried everything under the sun to get rid of Lyme disease and nothing has worked. When people say it's easy to treat with 2 weeks of antibiotics, I feel like my head might explode.
Posted 3/4/2024 7:20 PM (GMT 0)

gfields said...
I have tried everything under the sun to get rid of Lyme disease and nothing has worked. When people say it's easy to treat with 2 weeks of antibiotics, I feel like my head might explode.

Of course Lyme is easy to treat with two weeks of antibiotics.

Except when it isn't...which is probably most of the time.

I can relate to the matter making your head feel like it may explode.

Okay, on a serious note, have you noticed any correlation with certain foods? Several days ago, I made a pasta meal for dinner. Among the other ingredients (onion, garlic, ground beef, chicken stock, brown rice pasta), I also used a jar of low-sodium pasta sauce and a can of no-salt-added diced tomatoes.

Because most Italian food (or, for terrible cooks like me, Italian-ish food) is like crack to me, I ate three large bowls of it. After a couple of hours of feeling overstuffed and miserable, I began feeling a bit better. Then, I did the only sensible thing I could think of -- I ate some more. Then, I went to bed.

When I woke the next morning, my hands ached quite a bit. It wore off over the day, but the pain reminded me that I'd had that same experience a few times previously. It seems I wait just long enough to forget the experience, before I make the meal again and wake up with aching hands. Obviously, my memory isn't so great.

Anyway, I think it may have been Sarah Ballantyne's book "The Paleo Approach: Reverse Autoimmune Disease and Heal Your Body" that I learned that nightshade foods (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplants) may irritate the joints of some people. The Arthritis Foundation, on the other (aching) hand, states that reports of nightshades aggravating arthritis pain and inflammation are anecdotal and there are no scientific studies proving causation. (Sounds vaguely familiar, doesn't it?) Still, the Arthritis Foundation recommends to eliminate nightshades from the diet for a couple weeks and slowly reintroducing them. If nightshades trigger arthritis pain, of course, they advise to not eat them.

Sources:

The Paleo Approach: Reverse Autoimmune Disease and Heal Your Body

Best Vegetables for Arthritis

36 Tips for an Arthritis-Friendly Diet

I don't know if any of this will help, but I figured it was worth mentioning.
Posted 3/5/2024 12:30 AM (GMT 0)
“I have tried everything under the sun to get rid of Lyme disease and nothing has worked. When people say it's easy to treat with 2 weeks of antibiotics, I feel like my head might explode.”

That is when you start treating very soon after the bite… as within a few (or less) weeks
Posted 3/7/2024 2:34 PM (GMT 0)

The Dude Abides said...

gfields said...
I have tried everything under the sun to get rid of Lyme disease and nothing has worked. When people say it's easy to treat with 2 weeks of antibiotics, I feel like my head might explode.

Hi Dude - OK, yes, I'll take a look at these books.

Is it something the comes and goes? I always thought it was like a cumulative thing. Like it just steadily gets worse. not like a headache that comes and goes.

I'm noticing lumps on my joints like my mother has. They are painful after doing manual work with my fingers.

I heard that MSM can help with arthritis. Not sure if there are any other supplements that help. There could be inflammatory foods.

My LLMD said he can get rid of lyme disease. He said it would take 3 months, and he would be able to eradicate it. I was laid off a couple months ago, so now that I'm unemployed, it might be my window to let him try. He'll put me on all sorts of antibiotics, which make me feel super sick, but if I'm unemployed, then I'll be at liberty to not feel good, because I don't have to work. I think I might give it a shot. I just hope all those antibiotics don't ruin my liver or kidney or something. Then I'd be worse off than where I am now. But if he did eradicate the Lyme Disease, then maybe the arthritis would go away. Not sure.

I feel like I am rapidly aging. I feel like I should feel as old as I do, at this age. I'm 42, but I feel like I'm 92. My back hurts when I get up from sitting too long, and I need to wait 30 seconds before I can actually walk properly. It's crazy.
Posted 3/8/2024 12:13 AM (GMT 0)
Howdy, gfields:

I'm sorry to hear about your job layoff. I've been unemployed for quite a while, so I empathize.

As for joint pain, in my case, it's better some days than others and it varies by location in my body. Now, I do not have lumps in my joints like you're experiencing. So, we may be dealing with different issues.

Still, I wanted to encourage you to consider diet as possibly playing a part. That would require time to continue eating normally, log all your meals (date, time, ingredients, amounts), track and log your symptoms, then look for correlations between foods and symptoms. Sometimes, reactions may take a day or more to appear.

It could also be that, if a certain food or ingredient is a problem, it could be dose-dependent. In the case of my aching hands, for example, I seem to notice it when I eat a lot of that gluten-free pasta meal I mentioned. But, when using a can of diced tomatoes in a beef stew, for example, I don't seem to notice an issue. Or, when I occasionally have pizza (usually gluten-free, but not always), I don't recall noticing any issues with my hands.

The tracking and experimentation of foods and ingredients is something that might benefit me, but I don't do it. Should things get worse for me, I'm sure I will. But, I already struggle with things that are much less complex. If you're able to do it, though, I would encourage it, as it sounds like you're having a much worse time.

I wouldn't necessarily expect diet to *fix* anything, but if you're able to identify and reduce or eliminate problematic foods, that might at least help to reduce inflammation and pain.

Over the past 10 years, I've had much worse periods of muscle aches and joint pains migrating around my body. But, over time, the aches and pains have ebbed and flowed. My hands and wrists were much worse in the past, as were my knees and ankles. I've no idea why the issues were cyclic.

These days, my body aches a lot when I wake up. I think that's probably true for a lot of folks here on the forum, regardless of age. Though, my age probably isn't helping matters. I have lower back pain a lot and sometimes use a heating pad after waking to offer some temporary relief. My back, hips, and feet all ache after sitting for a while and I hobble a few steps to get things to moving again and feel better. My right hip clicks with nearly every step and doctors said it's arthritis and normal for my age.

I think that's sloppy medicine and that few doctors have any real clue as to what's happening or how to address it. Largely, I think they just label things (which, of course, is part of their job) and lower or eliminate any hope the patient may have to improve or reverse their condition. Here, I'm mainly referring to many common conditions like aches and pains. I'm not necessarily including diseases like cancer or cardiovascular disease.

Anyway, I'm going off on a tirade that's not really helpful and simply revealing my aggravation with much of the healthcare system. I usually try to keep a lighthearted persona on the forum, but that's been slipping lately.

As for your LLMD stating he can get rid of Lyme disease in three months, that's good that you have a provider that sounds confident and seems motivated to help. Since you now have some time to focus on yourself and not worry about it impacting your work, maybe this is a time to go for it.

I'd try not to take the doctor at their word that exactly three months is what will be required. It all depends on what means by "Lyme," of course. Is it just the one bacteria? Or, are their co-infections? Also, how long one has been afflicted (if they even know when it actually started) is another consideration, as are other health conditions, how you respond to treatments, and so forth.

I'm not doubting your provider or trying to discourage you, though. I'm simply suggesting you've been sick for a while and not to be discouraged if you're not in total remission at the three month mark. Our bodies are always trying to heal and we can't always know or feel everything that is improving. I wish only the best for you and will be happy to read any updates that you may wish to share.

Dude
Posted 3/8/2024 6:08 PM (GMT 0)
Dude said: ".........doctors said it's arthritis and normal for my age................I think that's sloppy medicine and that few doctors have any real clue as to what's happening or how to address it. Largely, I think they just label things......"

The more labels they invent, the easier it is for them!

My body aches have gone thru cycles even after treating lyme. But,...Im much better. All kinds of things contributed to my body aches improving. Was (is) a lot of work. I dont have Arthritic lumps though. My cytokin panel inflammation levels did get really low after eating per my LEAP MRT food test six years ago. Plus my 20 year thyroid nodule dissinagrated after that. I do miss a variety of foods though, I'm very limited, which sucks.

In my case hip issues went on for decades. No previous PT clinicians corrected this, until recently. The latest resolved/improved with:

1) Some odd inner and outer thigh/glute and IT band exercises. Admittedly, they are "girly" looking floor and couch or edge of bed exercises that actually work. They can be done on vertical pin weight adjustable gym equipment if they have an ankle loop. No one in the gym does these as they have no "visual rewards" lol. Having beefed up quads with weak glutes is pointless and creates stiff hips.

2) Putting (2) 4ft long 1x12 boards between my box spring and upper mattress. Helped hips and low back. I sleep 75% on my side. 25% on back.
Posted 3/8/2024 9:34 PM (GMT 0)

Dude said...
...doctors said it's arthritis and normal for my age...I think that's sloppy medicine and that few doctors have any real clue as to what's happening or how to address it. Largely, I think they just label things..."

astroman said...
The more labels they invent, the easier it is for them!

Absolutely! Everyone has to get put into a "box." A box for you, and you, and you...boxes for everyone! Then, it's 'Diagnose and Adios!' Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

(Years ago, a therapist suggested my sarcasm is "leaky anger.")

astroman said...
In my case hip issues went on for decades. No previous PT clinicians corrected this, until recently. The latest resolved/improved with: ... some odd inner and outer thigh/glute and IT band exercises. Admittedly, they are "girly" looking floor and couch or edge of bed exercises that actually work.

I know what I'm getting you for Christmas, Astro! https://youtu.be/4qsybrsgypi

Kidding aside, I've been fascinated and impressed with your many posts I've read over the years, regarding how you've improved or outright fixed so many issues on your, either by yourself or being your own advocate to push for the doctors and/or treatments you knew that you needed.

In fact, recently, via e-mail with another forum member, I wrote: "I wish astroman were a doctor, so I could get him to check out my thyroid." Haha. I'd have you help me with my musculoskeletal system, too. Given my healthcare experiences over the past several years, I've no doubt you could be more help with a few things.

Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard...and, Dr. Astro.
Posted 3/9/2024 3:13 AM (GMT 0)
Dude: Ha ha, the one and only thigh master! I haven’t seen that late afternoon early 1980s commercial probably since, well,….the early 1980s ….(right after an afternoon MASH rerun). Certainly better than the hearing aid commercials!
Posted 3/9/2024 3:21 AM (GMT 0)
Gfields-

In the meantime, dealing with your fingers and knuckles have you ever tried to DMSO?

The one to get is my natures gift with the tree on it, eight fluid ounces from Amazon

And how are your finger tendons on the top of your hands and where they going to your forearms?
Posted 3/10/2024 9:17 PM (GMT 0)
So, as you are aware, the Lyme arthritis is not like normal arthritis where the cartilage breaks down. Instead, the bacteria build up layers of calcified material that causes the joints to expand.

The lumps were most noticeable in my feet because my shoes wouldn't fit anymore, so I kept buying different shoes. Of course the lumps formed elsewhere too, including knees, hips, back, shoulders.

This has mostly resolved with treatment, but I do have a small amount left that hasn't quite gone away.

Three months is not a realistic time frame to resolve this. For me, it was closer to two years.

A big part of the problem is that breaking this down releases the calcium, and I was repeatedly getting hypercalcemia, which was majorly stressing my kidneys and pancreas, wrecking my blood sugar, and causing acid indigestion, etc. You can't do too much at once.
Posted 3/11/2024 8:16 AM (GMT 0)
I can confirm that nightshades can indeed be a trigger of arthritis and inflammatory responses, and it is more common in Lyme patients.
My husband is absolutely not allowed to eat these: potatoes, tomatoes, bell pepper, eggplant, peppers (cayenne pepper, red pepper, chili powder,...) but also goji berries and ashwagandha are nightshades.

My husband is very sensitive to it.
We always check the food we buy to make sure it doesn't contain any 'spices'. Because 'bell pepper' is often listed as a spice (in Belgium anyway). Bell pepper is often added as a seasoning, sometimes in products where you would not expect it. 'Starch' on a food label can also be potato starch, or wheat, but he should not eat gluten anyway. Glutenfree cookies may contain in some cases potato starch.
For us, it's important to read and sift through the labels. Of course, we eat as much unprocessed food as possible.
If he eats even a small amount of nightshade incorrectly, he will have severe joint pain and an attack of eczema with itching for at least a week. It is fairly easy to notice if he has accidentally eaten nightshade.

I don't know if nightshade or other foods like gluten are is a trigger for you, but it is certainly interesting to investigate.

about herbs, i think about: turmeric, ginger, boswelia, cissus, horsetail or bamboo. Green-lipped mussel is also known but can have allergic reactions too. Homemade bone broth is also very good (but bone broth is high in histamin, be aware if you have histamin intolerance)

Homeopathic cures that i know, is 2L ARTH or 2LINFLAM (labo life, is in europe)

Buhner also recommends herbs for arthritis, but I don't have his book handy.
A quick internet search, I came up with this:

Buhner Arthritis Tea
Mix together 1 lb. each of dried, cut and sifted

Nettles
Horsetail
Dandelion
Peppermint
Celery seed
Turmeric
Devil's claw
Meadowsweet

Mix this well. Each night measure out one cup of the herb mix and place in ½ gallon of boiling hot water. Take off the heat and let it steep overnight. Drink 3-4 cups of the tea the next day.
Posted 3/20/2024 9:51 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you all for your helpful replies.

astroman - DMSO? Do you apply this topically?

Quin - I think this might be what I have. A build up of calcium in the joints. You mention that you treated your lyme and it went away. What did you use to treat it? Did you use abx? What is the story with hypercalcimia?

annie23 - Thank you for this tea recipe. I will give it a shot. I do eat gluten free foods, because I also have stomach problems. I wonder if they are causing other problems. hmm... I was drinking a lot of Polar Gingerale. Then I started to wonder if there was an ingredient in the Gingerale that could be causing problems in my joints, so I stopped drinking that.

Would a rife machine help the arthritis? I'm not sure if there's a setting that gets rid of calcification, if that is the source of the problem. I see they have settings for osteoarthritis. They also have settings for Lyme disease. I have Spooky, but I haven't used it in years.
Posted 3/20/2024 4:53 PM (GMT 0)
Note- Ive not read this whole post over recently.

Ive just learned what actual conventional "normal" arthritis is and is not.

**Its noticable (or lack of) on an x-ray and is the FIRST material layer over bone ends.***

As mentioned in this post "lyme arthritis" is different, and is slang jargon with lyme disease.
Posted 3/20/2024 4:54 PM (GMT 0)
DMSO- yes, topically.

Solemons seal (northern wildflower) liquid also helps, but not very economically effective. I grow and make my own.
Posted 3/21/2024 12:55 AM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
Note- Ive not read this whole post over recently.

Ive just learned what actual conventional "normal" arthritis is and is not.

**Its noticable (or lack of) on an x-ray and is the FIRST material layer over bone ends.***

As mentioned in this post "lyme arthritis" is different, and is slang jargon with lyme disease.

Hi Astroman - I'm not sure I understand. The quote says lack of. Is it missing what it is lacking?

I was reading a little bit about lyme arthritis. I think they seemed to suggest that the spirochetes somehow leave a deposit in the joint. I'm not sure if this is a calcium deposit or some other sort of deposit. Not sure if calcium deposits are reflected in normal arthritis or just lyme arthrtitis.
Posted 3/21/2024 3:53 AM (GMT 0)
Oh sorry you’re confusion came where I said “is or is not”.

what it is- Arthritis in conventional medicine acknowledges it is a lack or wearing away of the first layer of soft tissue over the bone ends In a joint. Rheumatoid is the same thing, but the cause is From auto immune.

And this first layer of tissue, between the bone and the cartilage. It is not cartilage itself. I’m not sure what they call it. That’s just how it was described to me. It’s between the bone and the cartilage.

So if you have joint pain, but the first layer of soft tissue is still visible on the joint ends, (Per x-ray ) then that is not Arthritis as conventional describes it.

What arthritis is not - when you have Joint pain, but the first layer of soft tissue is still visible on the bone ends in a joint as seen on an x-ray.

So in a nutshell, conventional arthritis is when the first layer of soft tissue on the end of bones in a joint is wearing away or is gone.

Obviously to know the difference, you would need an x-ray.

I just had X-rays and an MRI done for my Problematic knee And I told the orthopedic doctor about my lyme past and she said “well good to know this first layer of material over your bone is still there so what you have is Tendon pain but, you feel it in your joint because that’s what it’s pulling pulling”.

That’s kind of what I have assumed all along.

I did not ask her about calcium deposits in tendons, though I don’t think the x-ray would’ve shown that and she certainly didn’t mention it. I have read that in numerous areas on the Internet with orthopedic surgeons who know something about Lyme disease. One of the universities out east have proven this. I forget which one. That’s not to say that’s everyone’s joint problem with lyme but for a lot of us it probably is.

I don’t think calcium deposits are a part of normal arthritis.
Posted 3/21/2024 4:00 AM (GMT 0)
I tried many different treatments for Lyme. Over a dozen different things.

Out of all the things I tried, two drugs made me herx the most, by far. These were sodium valproate (Depakote, Epilim) and valacyclovir (Valtrex). So I continued taking those, although I had to stop from time to time because the herx got so bad. I also took (at various times) loratadine, azithromycin, minocycline, and atovaquone. Atovaquone does nothing to borrelia, but was useful for other infections (bartonella, mold, certain viruses).

Things have slowly improved as I've killed off the bacteria. However, there does seem to still be some bacteria left. Borrelia is a very difficult infection to eliminate. The muscle/joint pain and lumps did resolve, but it was very slow improvement over months to years.

Regarding hypercalcemia, there seems to be two distinct issues. One is that with these infections, certain cells of the immune system will excessively convert 25-hydroxyvitamin D to 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D. This causes excessive calcium uptake (among other things). See this thread for a summary:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4326983

The second issue is that the borrelia lumps become calcified and release the calcium when you break them up. Certain processes in the body are calcium-dependent, and are affected by high calcium levels. The two that I tend to notice are release of insulin and production of stomach acid. I also tend to get cloudy urine when I pee out the excess calcium. I was afraid I might get a big kidney stone, but luckily that hasn't happened.

If you want to read it all, I've described my treatment protocol, and associated herxes/detoxing, in a series of threads:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4183846
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4290706
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4304226
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4304866
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4313527
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4327214
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4327979
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4330226

I've also described what I did about bartonella here:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4263738
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4315526

I likely never got babesia, so I can't comment on that.
Posted 3/21/2024 4:09 AM (GMT 0)
My forearm, tendons, wrist
tendons, shoulder tendons, IT bands, (which are the outside tendons on your thighs), were all super tight years ago. And this created tension in the joints which was felt as pain.

Maybe it felt like what an old person was described as arthritis, but technically it was not arthritis.

It was super tight tendons pulling their nearest anchored joint out of center, creating friction on the sides of the joint.

I went to quite a few chiropractors. Their typical adjustments did not work on me because my tendons were tighter than usual. When I mentioned, I had a history of Lyme disease they were like, “oh, that’s the problem, sorry ,….nothing I can do for you”.

However, a couple of them did mention that what I really needed to concentrate on, was breaking down the tension and possible calcium deposits in my tendons. That is done with the various versions of acupressure trigger point release and active release. Basically that is repeated tension And high friction pressure massage on problem tendons that breaks down the stiff material and makes them flexible again. This probably won’t work for everyone, but it will work for some other people besides me.

I eventually learned this on my own and it was part of my daily routine for about 10 years. I don’t have to do it every day now just once in a while , Sometimes a couple times a week.
—————-/-
As far as lumps go, I have some lumps just below the surface of the skin. largest being about the size of an American quarter. But, none/lyme people can also get this. There is a conventional medicine name for it, which I forgot. So are these lumps from Bartonella, or lyme or none of the above, ? I don’t know.

I don’t seem to get new lumps, but the old ones do not go away either. And my tendons no longer get tight.

What I do know is that I can move pretty good now I’m getting closer to 60 and I can mountain bike aggressively snowshoe and cross-country ski. I could not do those things in my 40s with Lyme disease.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/20/2024 8:19:15 PM (GMT-8)

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