Can these be herx reactions?

sorry to hear of your troubles

unfortunately we have had a number of members over the years who have reported similar super sensitivity to treatment with herbs - or in fact to anything antimicrobial.

the exact mechanism is hard to understand - as the amounts taken - just as you describe - are often much less than would normally be considered to be antimicrobial - so its hard to reason that there can be any significant killing of microbes at these doses.

presumably - because of the tiny concentrations involved and disproportionately large effects - this can only mean that the reactions are mediated by the immune system ( something that is known to be able to produce large reactions to even the tiniest stimuli) as its hard to see what else could be responsible.

i am also sensitive to treatment - but would rate myself as only moderately sensitive - so, for example - i was able to start most antimicrobial herbs at somewhere around 1/20th of the target dose - and work up very gradually from there. typically one at a time - so i could determine which herb caused what.

so the options appear to be

1, continue to try to work up the dosage gradually at whatever rate is tolerable for you.

2, try alternative herbal antimicrobial products - ideally one at a time - either on your own or via a more flexible LLMD/LLND

3, try alternative therapies - rather than directly antimicrobial ones - perhaps targeting calming the immune system - which some people with super sensitivities seem to have some success with - eg mind body techniques, DNRS etc - others here will have more details to offer. the basis of effectiveness here is - much of the illness and its symptoms are due to immune dysfunction - and if the immune system can function well enough it on its own can be sufficient to get some people well.

4, try pharmaceutical antibiotics - in opposition to what we are often told by doctors and people favouring natural therapies - its been my experience and that of several others here, that their sensitivity reactions are actually less when treating with pharma antibiotics compared to natural antimicrobial compounds.

we do not know the reasons for this. it could be due to most pharma antibiotics being bacteriostatic in nature - so slowing growth and replication of microorganisms rather than killing them outright - or it could be because there is something in the pharma drug development process that favours drugs with lower side effect profiles.

if you dont know if this is true in your case - it may be worth a trial of one of the safer drugs that are active for lyme and co-infections - like doxycycline.

I hope its of some help

i know they are what your provider favours but i just wanted to add that i have heard quite a number of people say that for whatever reason they reacted more strongly to the beyond balance products than anything else

i am not sure they are a suitable starting point for anyone who knowns they are sensitive

providers really need to be flexible to find alternative approaches when their treatments are not tolerated or working for their patients

if they are resistant to doing this then, for me, it would be a signal to find an alternate.

i hope you find a fruitful way forward

Saraeli, which DNRS program did you do and which do you recommend? The original Annie Hopper one?

Thank you so much Garzie! Have you ever seen someone who is hypersensitive on this board find some sort of way forward with treatment btw?

I used DNRS, the program established by Annie Hopper. It was enormously helpful.

I'm considering checking out the program Primal Trust soon, actually, which combines the limbic system retraining of DNRS with what sounds like Internal Family Systems therapy (IFS) and somatic therapy. I have done all of these separately, and I'm curious about how an online program weaves them all together.

I have not tried Gupta (which focuses mostly on the amygdala, I believe) or any other limbic system retraining programs.

Like I mentioned earlier, I got 85% better from treating MCAS and doing DNRS. 85% reliably, some days better. This was nearly five years ago now. Recently I developed sudden and consistent joint issues for the first time, and have been treating them with various supplements, including antimicrobials, in case the cause is a new tick bite I didn't notice or a reactivation of an infection I treated previously. I'm still increasing my doses slowly, relative to a normal person, but I've been amazed by how well I have tolerated everything I have tried (knock on wood)! The antimicrobials I'm taking are black walnut, Baikal skullcap, and Japanese knotweed, and I also take things with milder antimicrobial properties (stevia, vitamin C, vitamin D, kelp, chamomile, grapefruit, black pepper, iodine, coconut oil, garlic, etc.). Somehow I'm doing fine on all of those, plus other things for joints (BioSil, MSM, Solomon's seal, etc.). Before five years ago, it would have taken me a full year to start all of those things, and my system would have been overloaded right away. I probably would have reacted too poorly to continue with half of them, and the remaining ones I'd have to ramp up to so slowly it'd still be under five drops per day at the six-month mark. I can't tell you what a big difference this is for me.

When I first was diagnosed with tick-borne infections eight years ago, I started treating with Byron White formulas and did okay, but definitely herxed and felt fuzzy and bad the whole time. I switched to the Buhner protocol after six months, and needed to ramp up more slowly with that, and felt like I was herxing continuously. (I now know this continuous herxing was probably MCAS.) Eventually I just stopped antimicrobials because my overall condition kept declining. I also tried a DesBio homeopathic kit for Bartonella, which I could not tolerate (horrible herx) and a rife session for Babesia (also horrible herx); I actually ended up in the hospital after both of those! I also tried infrared light, energy work, acupuncture, NAET, flower essences, and other modalities with varying degrees of tolerability. Then I contracted a transient virus that gave me what was basically long COVID before COVID existed, including myositis that put me in a wheelchair. Five months into that nadir of disability, I read Toxic by Neil Nathan, began treating MCAS, and started DNRS. That's my story in a nutshell, and I share it just to show you that people can still get better, even after becoming hypersensitive. And that there are treatments that address hypersensitivity, so that you can tolerate antimicrobials if you need them!

What helpful responses and good tips here!

I understand your despondency if you react so sensitively, that makes it complex and your body often goes into a state of stress due to the hypersensitivity... But definitely keep looking for what works for your body.

My husband is also hypersensitive, unlike myself (I also count myself as sensitive, but I can tolerate herbs better than he can). We both have Lyme but we react so differently. He also has histamine issues, but he also reacts bad to quercetin, DAO, nettle, for example, which normally help with histamine problems...
Labolife, 2LALERG (micro-immunotherapy / homeopathy, in Europe) helps him well. This brings his immune system more into balance and ensures fewer allergic reactions.
I must say that he has completely stopped taking alcohol tinctures, as they were also a real trigger for palpitations and other annoying symptoms.
He can tolerate cryptolis in small quantities of non-alcoholic drops. There are few antimicrobial herbs that he can tolerate, but cryptolepis and chamomile, for example, are working well for him at the moment.
Mixes with different herbs are an absolute no-go for him, he never risks that. He takes herb by herb to know specifically what it does to his body.
In terms of detox herbs, chicory, ginger, active charcoal and zeolite are especially good for him.

Know that it is a searching process, with trial and error...
Finding the right treatment is extra difficult if you react hypersensitively and the reactions from herbs or supplements can be very intense for your body. Therefore, remain gentle with yourself. It is often frustrating, angry & sad, but keep faith in your healing path, which is not a quick fix...
All support for you and take care!