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Posted 11/30/2010 12:20 AM (GMT 0)
So, realistically, I (we) ABSOLUTELY have a shortened lifespan? I mean, no way can I expect to live maybe 30 or 35 years (I'd be 80 or 85) ? I've often wondered...
steve
Posted 11/30/2010 12:51 AM (GMT 0)

stevmac1 said...
So, realistically, I (we) ABSOLUTELY have a shortened lifespan? I mean, no way can I expect to live maybe 30 or 35 years (I'd be 80 or 85) ? I've often wondered...
steve

I think that you can relax, Steve.  The lifetime risk of males dying in the US of prostate cancer is 2.8%, and they aren't the ones that present with 3+3 gleason scores.  And the median age of a man who dies from prostate cancer is 80...the oldest of all cancers.  Relax.
Posted 11/30/2010 1:05 AM (GMT 0)
BuiDoi, GH

With a subject like this, I just think he got a bit depressed, like we all do sometimes, and fell off his horse. I think there is enough positive energy now that he feels better. Please tell us that you're back on your gold horse, goldhorse, ready to help us all. We need all the support we can get.
Posted 11/30/2010 2:23 AM (GMT 0)
I moved my father into my home and help care for him as he dying from advanced metastatic prostate cancer. It was most awful! My dad was a World War II kind of guy. He worked hard all his life. He took good care of his family. During his illness he never complained, he never cried. He was a hero, just like lots of guys in this HealingWell community. He was so darn strong and so very brave… I saw first hand what he had to go through, I am convinced that I’d never be able to do the same…I’m not that strong and obviously, not that brave.
So... I did all the due diligence that I needed, and with an educated roll of the dice I underwent radical surgery as a pre-emptive strike against this darn disease. My primary goal was for a cure. Yes, I believe that cure is possible. My secondary goal was to cause great hardship on those pesky little cancer cells and hopefully avoid a battle with metastatic disease if I failed to be cured. To that end I have made radical changes in my lifestyle and I would be offended if someone told me…
“imo, you have gone over the line on this dietary stuff, and i feel you are in some level of denial about cancer in general. how are you going to handle it if and when you have recurrance, and i hope you never do.” …
Obviously I did what I did for me and I’m not pushing my general philosophy on anybody. (with the exception of my two boys). Do I suggest that lifestyle changes are a cure-all…No. But I’m not in denial about the seriousness of cancer. It has been noted that we as a group have had our innards rearranged, and we subject our bodies to radiation, unnatural hormonal therapy and toxic chemicals…but some of us won’t engage lifestyle changes even IF… the scientific data suggest that it would be a prudent consideration. If my “medical team” has a problem with my radical lifestyle changes I’d get a new “medical team”.
Some people here give expert and factual advice, (Casey59) others contribute musings of their own opinion, and lastly some regularly post for reasons that remain a mystery to me. As for me, I find the former to be of great importance and the middle very inspiring / interesting.... and I try to politely ignore the latter.
IMO:
Can you be cured from prostate cancer?… Yes
Do reoccurrences happen all too often…Yes
Diet, Lifestyle and Genetics important considerations in prostate cancer?…Yes (pre and post interventional therapy)
Does living on pure water and green stuff (green stuff = biological consumables not money) guarantee success for a cure…Nope

Hero.
Posted 11/30/2010 2:27 AM (GMT 0)
At one point, Casey mentioned a randomized controlled study of diet and lifestyle changes for early prostate cancer under active surveillance. If allowed, here is the link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18602144
Frattaroli J, Weidner G, Dnistrian AM, Kemp C, Daubenmier JJ, Marlin RO, Crutchfield L, Yglecias L, Carroll PR, Ornish D. Clinical events in prostate cancer lifestyle trial: results from two years of follow-up. Urology. 2008 Dec;72(6):1319-23. Epub 2008 Jul 7.

The benefit isn't huge, but it is impressive that they attempted to do a careful, controlled trial. The study isn't blinded, of course--people know what they are eating. So things that involve decisions by the patient, such as going from active surveillance to conventional treatment, probably are influenced by the treatment group. You could imagine that people in the diet group might have some hope that the treatment might work, and would delay consideration of surgery or radiation. But the are were a few (3 out of 49 control patients who got a PSA >10), and that wasn't seen in the diet/lifestyle group (0 out of 43). Not the kind of results that should encourage people to think that they can ignore their PCa and just follow a diet, but something worth further study. Given the slow Ca of patients undergoing active surveillance, 2 years seems too short to produce a significant effect, if one exists.
Posted 11/30/2010 4:08 AM (GMT 0)
Nice to see that the posts are getting more rational.

Remember, at the start we got the tone that:

1) EVERYTHING is DIET, period.

2) There is no cure; it ALWAYS comes back.

The advice I got from my doctors was to eat a good, sensible, heart-healthy diet. I have to admit that I don't always adhere to that. Given the current scientific state, that makes a lot of sense.

Mel

Posted 11/30/2010 4:47 AM (GMT 0)
ChrisR,

Thanks for the link you posted yesterday. In the meantime I've lost track of the thread. Can't keep up without a scorecard, I guess. Anyway, it was a surprise to me that the Gleason scores were sort of recalibrated in 2005.

DJ
Posted 11/30/2010 7:28 AM (GMT 0)
Strange. Throughout this thread I never saw a post that was uncivil. A member posts stuff he genuinely believes but a lot of others view as questionable science and raise their eyebrows. Now it seems as though those who express such reservations about some alleged science are seen as attacking the messenger rather than questioing what was posted. It is also apparent that some members (and those that support a particular position) see their views as sacrosanct. Sadly, in the last 12 months some now here view Healingwell, not as a forum (and that is the operative word, meaning a place of debate and discussion which includes mutual support) but rather a place to show the plebs just how clever and knowledgeable they are. (albeit in their eyes)
Bill
Posted 11/30/2010 7:42 AM (GMT 0)
Billy, I think your on the money. How's the MUDDIES going?...................Kev
Posted 11/30/2010 10:14 AM (GMT 0)
The thing not to lose sight of in this debate is that we are not experts.
The following comments are thus not to criticize or compliment anyone who posts here, merely to help define the parameters within which our thinking should be based.
The medical and scientific community worldwide has yet to reach consensus and agreement about almost everything relating to what may cause cancers, what may prevent cancers and what the best way to treat cancers is. Some studies have made a great deal of progress to confirming assorted hypotheses, but one single study in isolation should not be given as much standing/validity as the collective wisdom of the scientific/medical world. (ie what counts are things like the number of people in a study and the duration; peer review; the opinion of others in the same field and the ability to replicate any findings.)
Yes, there are some (new) ideas out there that may be thinking outside the box, and which in years to come may be shown to be on the right track, but neither scientists nor amateurs should jump on bandwagons or put all their eggs in one basket. However, at the same time it is essential to retain an open mind, as it will only be thanks to new ideas that progress will be made. A version of innocent till proven guilty is required. Any new theory about an aspect of cancer can thus be welcomed, but if at some point doubts and questions about it arise they too must be considered with equal vigour. ( For example, and putting it somewhat simplistically, there have been studies that PCa may be triggered by too much sex or by not enough sex. Or while a particular diet may be good for one cancer it may be bad for another cancer.)

Not being my usual light-hearted Alf perhaps here today, but I am stuck with my own knowledge about my own lifestyle history, and the confirming observation made in the first sentence of my biopsy report where my urologist wrote (in Dutch) “The patient is a fit, young, healthy male.” I thus find myself in the position of being a guy with Gleason 7 and T3b, who has already had surgery and SRT before his 50th birthday, despite having had the healthy lifestyle. Yes, I have tried to lead a healthier lifestyle since diagnosis, but I have in fact made very few changes to what I do, eat etc.

I can thus only feel like I simply got unlucky. Who knows why. And I’d rather look to the future than the past anyway and, as guys like David know, I continue to try not to have any excesses in any part of my life.

Alf
Posted 11/30/2010 10:41 AM (GMT 0)

NotHard said...
Billy, I think your on the money. How's the MUDDIES going?...................Kev

Hey Kev,
We bought a couple of traps before we set off but they proved to be next to useless. Caught a couple of muddies but they were under size so back they went. We have a couple of better traps now so here's hoping. The fishing , alas, is not much better. All this rain has made the water pretty cloudy. I have to say though I am over this heat in the tropics ....... it is relentless. Next time I'll pick the season a little more carefully. The last time I was up this way was with my wife, mid winter, 1979. If my memory serves me it was outstanding. Still it could also be that a lean 11 st, 32 yo body would cope a little better than a 17st, 63 yo one. sad
Bill
Posted 11/30/2010 3:52 PM (GMT 0)
 

HealingWell was a blessing to me three years ago when I joined the club no man wants to join. It helped me to understand what Pca was, and the many treatment options open to me. I thought I had done my research, and came to the simple conclusion that by having all the cancer causing prostrate and seminal Ves. removed would be in my best interest, and if they missed some, I still had other treatment options available to me. Until I read this thread, I was felling very good about my outcome. The pathologist said the PCA had not spread, and all my follow up PSA exams have been excellent. My Doctor told me that everything points to my being cured, but we will keep watching the PSA every six months until the five year mark. Although I have felt confident that I have beat the beast, I always get a little uptight and worried before each visit, but darn guys, after reading these resent post I was scared wittless yesterday when I went in for my three year PSA, and am holding my breath until I get the results back.

I am in no way as educated about Psa as most of the members posting here, and just try to support others going through the process of dealing with cancer, but I have seen a nasty turn in the tone and attitude of some of those posting here. Hey, let's try and get back to offering support each other and quit trying to show that you "know" more than the next guy.

Beachbum

Posted 11/30/2010 4:18 PM (GMT 0)

OK, now this thread has been described as "venomous" and "nasty"...geez guys, why so senstive?  I agree with Billy in that I didn't find it uncivil at all.  Maybe my sensitivity chip is missing???  Let's not get so politically correct that we can't speak directly, frankly and with conviction.  We may not all agree but I fail to see the harm in passionate expressions of opinion. 

Now if you want to call me a "simple idiot" as lovingly expressed in my favorite moderator's recent thread....then I'll get my feeling hurt!

Tudpock (Jim)

Posted 11/30/2010 4:44 PM (GMT 0)
Although quite the sensitive female, I didn't find this thread particularly venomous. If you are interested in the perspective of someone who generally doesn't participate in this type of discussion, let me say this: Keep on discussing! I don't come here solely for support, but to learn. I am perfectly capable of sorting through the various opinions and finding the information I am seeking. I especially enjoy links to studies and articles, as long as they are current.

I think you're all doing just fine.

Juliet
Posted 11/30/2010 5:13 PM (GMT 0)
Billy Mac, your post post was dead on accurate, you get my vote across the board. Can you really remember something that happened in 1979? That was back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. You are doing pretty good.
Posted 11/30/2010 6:37 PM (GMT 0)
After reading some (not all) of the posts on this subject I decided to do a bit of research. SLoan Ketteing has what they call some "Prediction Tools" that are listed at http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/5794.cfm

At http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/10088.cfm   you can find the information abut how to use the prostate cancer tool

At http://www.mskcc.org/applications/nomograms/Prostate/index.aspx  you select which prostate cancer tool applies to you and then follow the prompts.

The tool asks you for specific information and then gives a percentage prediction of how long you will remain cancer free.  Mine read:

Progression-Free Probability After Surgery 2 Year 99%
5 Year 98%
7 Year 97%
10 Year 96%

I am sure that this is not absolute.  However, it does get rid of some of the guess work 

Posted 11/30/2010 7:03 PM (GMT 0)
I'm cured until my PSA and Dr tell me otherwise. Life is waaaaay too short to worry about what may be around the corner.

That said, I'm quite sure I'll have anxiety immediately prior to my PSAs.
Posted 11/30/2010 8:12 PM (GMT 0)
Billy, et. al.:

Exactly right. There has been nothing uncivil nor venemous here. Surely we can question statements here without walking on eggs!!??

With PC, we should be very careful about making any absolute pronouncements.

In fact, I was trying to think of things we definitely KNOW about PC, unequivocally. I was going to say that we definitely know that PSA is a superb indication of PC activity/growth after treatment. But, you know, that isn't even true as there are some aggressive PCs that do not produce much PSA.

OK, we definitely know that when a biopsy shows PC, then you have PC. Wait, there have been a few weird exceptions, but that might be as close to an absolute that I can think of.

Oh, wait: here's an absolute: PC Sucks!

Mel

Posted 11/30/2010 8:23 PM (GMT 0)
Hero, first of all, it is nice to hear from you, and I’ve been wondering how you are doing…I haven’t seen posts from you in a while, although I have not been here much myself with so many other things going on at home.   I have to perform a bit of “triage” on threads using the Subject line which results in me skipping lots of them, and then in the ones I select to read it’s often a simply a quick skim.   I almost missed your post here.   It sounds like you are staying strong , and staying smart about your PC battle (speaking of smart, by the way, I love your appropriate choice of pseudonym “Herophilus”, the inventor of the scientific method)…your dad would be proud.   You wrote: Herophilus said... ...To that end I have made radical changes in my lifestyle and I would be offended if someone told me… “imo, you have gone over the line on this dietary stuff, and i feel you are in some level of denial about cancer in general. how are you going to handle it if and when you have recurrance, and i hope you never do.” … Don’t worry, nobody is going to say that to you…that would be both goofy, and disappointing for a support site like this.   On the other hand, most guys here have educated themselves about PC and many closely follow what the leading PC-experts preach about diet, lifestyle and exercise…I think that they would all (as would I) applaud and support your efforts.   Unfortunately, some guys simply don’t have the willpower to change; or as some experts in the psychology of change would say, some guys have too much “momentum” behind doing things the way they have always been done.   In fact, I’ve even read in the periodical “Medical Economics” about (paraphrasing) how a doctor will look at patient “C” and recognize that “here’s a patient that’s got the capacity, willingness and motivation to do things different” and provide them with a different set of instructions than that same doctor would provide to patient “D” who the doctor would look at and say to himself “I’m not going to load this guy down with stuff that I know he’ll never do anyhow.”   Not saying it right; just the way it is.   I like your common sense approach: Herophilus said... Can you be cured from prostate cancer?… Yes Do reoccurrences happen all too often…Yes Diet, Lifestyle and Genetics important considerations in prostate cancer?…Yes (pre and post interventional therapy) Does living on pure water and green stuff (green stuff = biological consumables not money) guarantee success for a cure…Nope Although, maybe I like your approach because it sounds a lot like the things I’ve written here recently, including: ·           “Silver bullets?  Magic pills?”   Naw.    Link ·           “a little bit is better than nada”    Link ·           “… the same plan of committing to a good diet, exercise and lifestyle modification that has been shown to slow or stop the progression of prostate cancer's key marker in some men is also good one's heart...”      Link     [By the way, in the US there are 20X more heart attack deaths than prostate cancer deaths.] ·           “You cannot make the cancer disappear with a change in diet, but really…”      Link ·           “ It seemed to me that no one in the world would more motivated to seek out an anti-cancer regimen than a cancer survivor who wants to be sure he remains a survivor. ” ·           “ I would personally recommend moderation in new diet and lifestyle, but that might depend on the starting point.   For example…”       Link ·           “Why do we see so many statements which make guys look like they've got their heads stuck in the sand?  Statements which sound like, ‘It can't cure my cancer, so I ain't changing nuthin'.’  I dunno...”      Link ·           [insulin]   “ It's another diet factor within our control which can either accelerate or slow cancer(s) in our bodies.  It's a simple question of whether we want to stack the odds in our favor, or stack the odds against us.  ”      Link ·             “ You have things that are within your control which can affect your post-RP PSA result, so I'd encourage you to keep doing them and keep looking at what else is within you to change .  Change is difficult, but nothing like some favorable results to help motivate you for more ! ”      Link ·             “… I think it's wise to do the things that continue to stack the odds on one's favor, and not do the things that stack odds against you...so good luck, John. It's a journey, not an event.”      Link ·           “These changes didn't cure cancer for your friend (of course; obviously), but I would venture to say that he is happy that he made changes in his diet and lifestyle in order to help keep his prostate cancer in-check...”      Link   I’m going to continue to stay positive and supportive.   I have been motivated to keep educating the new guys here as there have been many who “get it” as a result of being exposed to the preponderance, and growing, mountain of evidence supporting diet, exercise and lifestyle changes to help fight PC.   best wishes…  
Posted 12/1/2010 4:46 PM (GMT 0)

Herophilus, Red Nighthawk, Jim is sick, Franchot, rhb47, ASR, brb0923, mr bill, Gordy, and many other friends who have expressed interest in making an impact on your cancer...

Suggested book for your holiday shopping wish-list:  Anticancer, A New Way of Life, by Dr David Servan-Schreiber

Link

Posted 12/2/2010 8:34 AM (GMT 0)
Casey59 said... I’m going to continue to stay positive and supportive.   I have been motivated to keep educating the new guys here as there have been many who “get it” as a result of being exposed to the preponderance, and growing, mountain of evidence supporting diet, exercise and lifestyle changes to help fight PC.   Just read your earlier post again  --  Thanks for the rational approach to the issues.  -- I agree with every word.. I don't purport to be an expert on anything, but there is just so much to be seen as fact, and despite doctors not wishing to accept the findings as science, it would be an unwise person who insists on clear proof prior to their giving it a go..    ..  Casey59 - I will be there with you giving hope to those so desperate for even a glint of it.. I have physically seen brain-cancer shrunken and hopefully eliminated by diet and supplements.  The "Brain Surgeon" said it could NOT happen, until he saw the MRI, and he then overdosed on Humble-Pie.. . .
Posted 12/2/2010 9:29 AM (GMT 0)
If something can change in our bodies that can make cancer start to grow, it doesn't sound like bad science to suggest that something could be changed in our bodies to stop cancer growing, or slow things down. Working out what exactly that might be is the complicated bit. This thread is merely a discussion about what ideas are being suggested and have been tried, tested, abandoned etc.

The very fact that we come to HW with questions means that we know there is a problem and that we are in search of answers, which is good. It's easier to find the answers together than to stumble along alone.
So thanks to all of you (And once again thanks to Peter)

More snow again here today. Perhaps I should go outside and make a snowman and hang a blue ribbon on him.

Alf
Posted 12/2/2010 12:23 PM (GMT 0)
 

Western diet ups spread of prostate cancer.  

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/411848.php

Posted 12/2/2010 12:40 PM (GMT 0)

I was having a conversation with a good friend of mine last night who was diagnosed with Stage IV Ovarian cancer in April of this year. She had a mass removed, and the cancer had spread to her lungs and lymph system. She underwent chemotherapy immediately after surgery. In 6 months, and the end of October, she was pronounced "in remission" as they could not find cancer anywhere. That's not to say that there aren't microscopic cels lurking, but none can be found at this point. This woman has been in the wellness field professionally as a massage therapist for some years, and has taken care of herself with diet and exercise. Upon her diagnosis, she embarked on a rigorous holistic approach as an adjunct to her chemo, and carefully watched her diet and added supplements that she believed, through her knowledge and research, would give her a fighting chance...........so what does she owe the remission to? Who knows. But it would seem a little more than coincidental that her outcome was purely luck. As you guys might be aware, a late diagnosis of Stage IV Ovarian is almost a certain death sentence, akin to pancreatic and other in how lethal it is--------I had another friend pass away from it this year with almost indentical age, symptoms, etc.-------------I thought this might be cogent to our thread here, even though the cancer is a different one than the one we do battle with.

Arnie in DE

Posted 12/2/2010 6:09 PM (GMT 0)
.....peaking my head up from my bunker to see if it's safe to post without getting myself shot down....

"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference." (Robert Frost)

Thanks Casey for the book reference. I ordered it.

Peace and good health to all.

Post Edited (Red Nighthawk) : 12/2/2010 1:47:51 PM (GMT-7)

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