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Posted 8/20/2011 11:49 PM (GMT 0)

Greetings:

I thought it was time to check in with my 40 month ” ZERO” checkup and sing my praises where they are due, GP, surgeon, spouse, friends, etc., but all is not well in Huskerland this time.  Although my last 6 month test was a nice zero my testosterone was low to a point of concern with my surgeon.  He told me I was in the 150 range and needed to get it up to 600.  He requested that I have my blood tested in 3 months and get back to him so he can decide if testosterone treatment is necessary.   I did all the reading and got the total pro’s and con’s view of testosterone treatment of a prostate cancer patient.  I decided to treat myself and take all the herbal products that can raise testosterone.  It works ladies and gents; it raised my testosterone 50 points in 6 months.

I have had 6 months to decide what to do if my “T” level was low again.  Yes I get tired very easy and have a hard time staying awake even with bed time early every evening.  My employees think I have a horn growing out of my forehead because I have become less tolerant of their actions.  Basically I am a grump and I use to be fun to be around.  I went on a week long motorcycle trip just before my last check up to make my final decision on what I should do and risk I should take. No I didn’t go to Sturgis, next year.  Most articles that are wary of testosterone treatment with prostate cancer patients are based on older studies.  Several new studies show no adverse effects, and I am the perfect candidate, I have not had a sign of anything other than a Zero PSA since my surgery.  One last point I would like to make, raising your “T” by food or herbs or whatever still raises your “T” so there really isn’t any difference if it is a cancer risk.  Quality of life does mean something.  I have complete faith in my surgeon and I am willing to try to improve my life quality for the next odd twenty years I have left.  Sometime choices are truly tough.  A side note, because I am going on to a testosterone treatment I am going from 6 month back to 3 month checkups.  I believe in the power of our health givers but it doesn’t hurt to be watchful.  I’ll keep you informed, this is probably more common than one would think.

 

Age 61 at diagnosis

PSA Jan 2006 2.8, PSA Jan 2007 3.7, PSA Jan 2008 4.4

DRE Normal, Biopsy positive 1 core in 10,

Clinical T1C, Pre surgery Gleason 3+4=7

Bones scan Normal, Cat Scan Normal

Da Vinci robotic Surgery April 30, 2008, Fremont Nebraska

Post surgery Gleason 3+4=7, Pathological P2C

Lymph nodes clear, Margins clear

Hospitals stay 2-days, Catheter out 10 days

1-pad a day for 3 weeks

Back at work 7-days after surgery, desk job

Both Nerves spared

Post 40 month PSA-undetectable

Posted 8/21/2011 12:07 AM (GMT 0)
>>He told me I was in the 150 range and needed to get it up to 600. <<

 

600 is very high.  mine is at 500 and while it's in the normal range it's high for my age.

 

ed

 

 

Posted 8/21/2011 12:35 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you for your input.  Since my hearings is as good as my testosterone level I did a quick web search and found that mens testosterone range from 250 to 850 ng/dl.  The median for my age (64) was 560.  I'm guessing my doctor was rounding up when he gave me the comparison.  What I do know is that my testosterone is too low at 200 and it is effecting life in an adverse way.  I have beat cancer for 40 months so I am willing to try and beat this.  Yes there are risks, I have spents hours reading reseach papers, but since my life was not in those papers I am willing to start another one and hopefully it will give someone else information for their turn at this problem.  Together we beat cancer and some of us just need to be the guinea pig.
Posted 8/21/2011 12:59 AM (GMT 0)
Ironman, that doesn't sound like an easy decision to make, but you sound like you have done all your homework. Life comes with risks regardless, and I am all about Quality of Life, so I wish you good luck with your thinking, and with those more frequent PSA monitorings, you can always adjust your game plan accordingly.

David in SC
Posted 8/21/2011 1:34 AM (GMT 0)
Ironman -- you're right.  my lab slip says 740 is the upper limit of normal so i assumed 600 was a high number to shoot for.

ed

 

Posted 8/21/2011 2:11 AM (GMT 0)
Ironman -- whose chart were you looking at?  remember that testosterone replacement/enhancement is in vogue now and after a little bit of research i see that many of these guys are trying to sell something. 

ed

 

Posted 8/21/2011 3:36 AM (GMT 0)
Ironman,

You said "My employees think I have a horn growing out of my forehead because I have become less tolerant of their actions.  Basically I am a grump and I use to be fun to be around. "

 

I am in the same position (well, maybe not, they are not my employees, but they have to work with me). The change in attitude you are experiening may be "Low T" as the adverts to get you to spend money propose, BUT ...

I tend to think my intolerance comes from the absolute lack of desire to spend what time I have left cleaning up the results of ignorance and blind stupidity. As long as I was going to live forever, who cared if I filled the corporate bean counter's billable hours coffer with real value, or just cleaning up after the kids? Today, every minute is MY asset to waste or utilize. I don't tolerate crap any more. They find my detailed training and insistance on having perfection as an objective as absurd and incomprehensible. That is their loss.

Posted 8/21/2011 4:12 AM (GMT 0)
142 - i definitely have more attitude at higher testosterone levels cool .

ed

 

Posted 8/21/2011 7:42 PM (GMT 0)
Ironman,
Have you had your estradiol (E2) blood level measured? In men testosterone is converted to estradiol by an aromatization enzyme and is one potential way of reducing testosterone levels.

There are ways to inhibit this process. Chrysin is an OTC herbal that is used to prevent testosterone from being converted to E2. There are several prescription drugs that do the same (Arimidex,Femara). By doing this, testosterone level increases.

Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in men surviving PCa needs to be done by someone who understand well the process. Testosterone never has been proven to cause PCa. What is known is that once present testosterone and its metabolic products can make the cancer grow faster. This is why when doing TRT one needs to be supervised by experts. TRT can improve your health level but it will also cause a reduction in your naturally produced testosterone. This is why it is a serious commitment that needs to be monitored closely.

Wish you the very best and safe resolution to your present condition.

RalphV
Posted 8/21/2011 8:05 PM (GMT 0)
Hey Ironman..........Ralph is right on point. I have been doing TRT since January. First with bio-identical cream, and since April, with shots of Testosterone Cypionate. I have had two PSA tests since then, one in March, and one in July. Still undetectable at <0.1...........I'm 2 1/2 years removed from robotic surgery in 1/09. The old guideposts of testoterone fueling PCa after treatment are slowly being replaced by new guidelines/studies; where studies have shown that resulting high estrogen (specifically Estradiol or E2) should be feared more. I was going to wait and post on this when I reached my final destination of hormanol tweaking, but I wanted to chime in here. My levels have been montiored closely. As men age, they produce more and more of the Aromatase enzyme that Ralph refers to, converting more and more testosterone, whether endogenous, or exongenous, to estrogen. Estrogen always beats testosterone to the cell receptors in a game of hormonal musical chairs, no matter where your levels of T are. And it's not necessarily the absolute levels of either that matter, it's the ratio between the two. The ratio in healthy young males in their 20's and 30's is around 50:1 (T/E)..........mine is now running 20:1, and my SHBG is very high in range. Bring the E2 in line with the natural stuff Ralph mentions, or go to Arimidex if they fail. I've been trying Chrysin, Nettle Root, D-Calcium Glucarate and DIM to bang down the estrogen, but to no avail. I'm now at the point where I'll be trying Arimidex (very low dosage) to get the ration in line. My last range for T was 583 at the end of cycle, and 1042 right after shot. We now have shortend the interval to every 5 days, halving the dose to 50 mg. This should keep the level high around 800, with a more even delivery schedule, which my uro is fine with. (This is a guy who was hesitant to supplement me, made me wait until I reached the 2-yr mark, and then has been checking the PSA more regularly than he would have at this point)...........my advice to you is to check your estradiol, plus serum T, free T, SHBG, and DHT when you do you levels. Start doing some reserach on this, and keep pursuing quality of life as you see it. I'll check in again once I start the Arimidex.

Arnie in DE

Posted 8/21/2011 8:21 PM (GMT 0)
Please Ironman, keep us informed.  I care.

My husband was getting those testosterone shots for a year, and then he was diagnose with PCa.  When we met with the urologist, I was armed with my list of questions (thank you HealingWell) and came right out and asked if those shots contributes to his getting cancer.  Talk about the runaround.  He said I can't say that it did not cause the growth of cancer cells, nor that it did.  IMO, I think he did.

Now the doctor wants to wait one more year (two years from his Robotic Surgery) before considering it.  It is Ron' body, but I am most fearful.  I did read that two years was the recommended time to wait.  Any ideas about this?

Posted 8/21/2011 9:22 PM (GMT 0)
Hey Arnie,
Good going with the close testing of the hormonal mixture. If Chrysin is not working try 0.5 mg of Arimidex with approval of your doctor. Wish you the best outcome.

RalphV
Posted 8/23/2011 11:47 PM (GMT 0)
I spoke to my urologist about T therapy in June 2011. He reviewed my prognosis - 10 year post surgery and said it could work but was not 100% sold on T level and therapy.
He also stated that if you get T therapy it could affect your PC.
There is nothing definitive either on having T Therapy or not. He was just cautious on it.

Thinking back I took DHE and that's when I noted a change in my orgasm and prostrate. My family has a bad history with PC so I will not take any unnecessary chance.
Posted 8/24/2011 2:41 AM (GMT 0)
Ironman, I believe as you do that Quality of life is important. I was eagerly reading the new studies coming from Havard, Baylor, California, and Germany about testosterone not affecting PSA levels. I had been dragging around, no energy, no motivation, and little sex drive. I posted a couple of months ago about my decision to try testosterone treatments. When my doctors refused to read the articles I tried to show them on the new studies, I contacted a doctor at Baylor Medical Center in Houston that has done some of these new studies and wrote several articles on prostate cancer and testosterone treatments. I am now a patient of his and I am now in my second month of testosterone treatments. I am feeling better. I am gaining strength. My sex drive has increased. I am not there yet butI think I am on the right road to a more enjoyable life. My wife says I have made noticable improvements. I have been in the zero club since my surgery. Still waiting on my blood test I had a week ago to see if my PSA levels have changed, I should have the results anytime now. My doctor has also put me back on 3 month checkups.

Good luck to you.

 

Posted 8/24/2011 2:12 PM (GMT 0)

ralfinaz said...
Ironman,
Have you had your estradiol (E2) blood level measured? In men testosterone is converted to estradiol by an aromatization enzyme and is one potential way of reducing testosterone levels.

There are ways to inhibit this process. Chrysin is an OTC herbal that is used to prevent testosterone from being converted to E2. There are several prescription drugs that do the same (Arimidex,Femara). By doing this, testosterone level increases.

Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in men surviving PCa needs to be done by someone who understand well the process. Testosterone never has been proven to cause PCa. What is known is that once present testosterone and its metabolic products can make the cancer grow faster. This is why when doing TRT one needs to be supervised by experts. TRT can improve your health level but it will also cause a reduction in your naturally produced testosterone. This is why it is a serious commitment that needs to be monitored closely.

Wish you the very best and safe resolution to your present condition.

RalphV

 

Hey RalphV,

 That was a very interesting post and oh so true. I'm here Canada's tiniest province(PEI) and although we've made some great strides in PC treatments, we have very little in the way of TRT and it's various choices or how to manage their side effects. How and who should I approach about this E2 measurement and the aromatization enzyme being one potential way of reducing testosterone levels? URO, ONCO FD?

 

GlennK

Posted 8/24/2011 3:11 PM (GMT 0)
Glenn,
Your best bet would be an endocrinologist or an oncologic urologist with a specialty in treating patients with TRT. It is a complex issue and it should not be treated without expertise.

RalphV
Posted 8/24/2011 9:40 PM (GMT 0)
ralfinaz said...
Glenn,
Your best bet would be an endocrinologist or an oncologic urologist with a specialty in treating patients with TRT. It is a complex issue and it should not be treated without expertise.

RalphV


That could a problem here on this little Island.....thanks anyway!


Also, how valid or accurate is this information? I would really like to pursue the theory with some remote specialists that I have access to, but I would prefer if I had more to go on.


Again.....can anyone corroborate this theory?
Posted 8/26/2011 1:31 AM (GMT 0)

As I have noted, I did a lot of reading on this subject before I committed to a trial.  T therapy is a whole lot like opinions in that everyone has one but few can back up their opinion with facts.  We are also in an age where few professional people will risk a law suit even if they feel positive about their recommendations.  My surgeon, who I have stated before is one I would put up against anyone because first he is a nice guy, and second when you read his credentials and publications and awards, he did not fall off the potato truck anytime this year.  In addition I know several of his patients and they all have had excellent recovery.  No incontinence, no ED and no cancer.  

  In my case he has me on a 1% gel which he feels is more dependable than pills and less traumatic to the system than shots.  Remember, my testosterone level was at 200 not zero.  My Gleason was 3+4 and my prostate was small.  I only had 1 hit out of 10 with no sign of margin penetration.   For 40 months my PSA has been zero or undetectable by their labs.  I am 64 years old and I know that if I came down with a reoccurrence of PC, I could probably live another 10- years with issues.  If I can go 10 years without a reoccurrence I will most likely live to my statistical age of 86.   Believe it or not with one week of treatment under my belt, I have, imagined or not, more energy and have not nodded off to sleep at work all week.  Some of you have asked very detailed questions and to be honest, I don’t know the answers to your questions.  When I have faith in someone as I do in my surgeon, I just ask to be told the time, please do not build me a watch in your answer.  Don’t misunderstand that I think everyone should so this.  I don’t, but if you have low PSA, no sign of PC after treatment then you might want to consider this if you need it, but if not, then don’t.  PC is the elephant in the room we all are accustomed to and it will be there until we pass on.   If I was in my 50’s I think I would handle this a bit different but at 60+ I would rather slide into home base all used up and say what a ride, than analyze every quiver and pain for the rest of my life.  I want to work at my job for another 10 years.  I’m good at it and if I feel good will stay doing just that.  T treatment is allowing me to have that possibility.  I will let you know from time to time if everything is working toward to a better life. Cheers to everyone.

Ironman 1600

Posted 8/26/2011 1:44 AM (GMT 0)
good luck to you Ironman.  your reasoning is sound.  i remember six months after my last shot of lupron i "felt" my libido and energy returning ... or so i thought.  my next test showed my testosterone level to be at 6!  let us know how it goes cool .

ed

 

Posted 9/4/2011 3:15 PM (GMT 0)

ralfinaz said...
Ironman,
Have you had your estradiol (E2) blood level measured? In men testosterone is converted to estradiol by an aromatization enzyme and is one potential way of reducing testosterone levels.

There are ways to inhibit this process. Chrysin is an OTC herbal that is used to prevent testosterone from being converted to E2. There are several prescription drugs that do the same (Arimidex,Femara). By doing this, testosterone level increases.

Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in men surviving PCa needs to be done by someone who understand well the process. Testosterone never has been proven to cause PCa. What is known is that once present testosterone and its metabolic products can make the cancer grow faster. This is why when doing TRT one needs to be supervised by experts. TRT can improve your health level but it will also cause a reduction in your naturally produced testosterone. This is why it is a serious commitment that needs to be monitored closely.

Wish you the very best and safe resolution to your present condition.

RalphV

Can anyone corroborate this theory?
Posted 9/4/2011 3:49 PM (GMT 0)
 T therapy is a whole lot like opinions in that everyone has one but few can back up their opinion with facts. We are also in an age where few professional people will risk a law suit even if they feel positive about their recommendations. 

 

Ironman, this is what we went through with Ron's doctor.  No defining answer.  As some have mentioned,  maybe the cancer was present and the testerone encouraged a more speedy growth thus effecting the PSA.  One other thing I will share is that I had surgery on a breast tumor.  Thank God, it was benign!  However, my surgeon recommended I end my estrogen/progesterone therapy (Prempro) immediately for fear it would cause cancer.  I cannot afford the natural therapy recommended by Suzzane Sommers and other celebrities.

 

I am posting this here in the hope that some of your wives have been down this road (or other gals reading this).  I don't think it needs a separate thread.

 

Ironman, please keep us posted.  I appreciate ALL comments being made!

 

Thank you,

Aimzee

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