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Absolutely disgusted with the direction and message of this forum

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Posted 5/26/2013 5:19 AM (GMT 0)
I don't even know where to start, so I'll start with the title of my "Subject" - I am absolutely disgusted, disappointed, embarrased with where this forum has gone.  When I found this site almost one year ago it was an absolute god-send to me.  I was a newbie, having just been told I had cancer, and scared crapless about what to do.  I found you guys and gals, and you were here for me, supporting me, educating me, being brothers and sisters against the beast, against a common enemy.  And now, all I see is attacks against one another, to the point a valued brother and Mod quit. 

Instead of being here for each other, we instead decide to attack one another - and where is the value in that?  What are we presenting to the newbies that so desperately need our experience, knowledge, and shoulder to lean on?  I'll tell you what we are presenting - a bunch of egotistical, opinionated pieces of crap that choose to argue and fight against each other instead of being here for each other.

I am pissed off, and don't give a flying leap if the Mods have to censor this post - because *** have we become?????????  Had I walked into this environment last year, I would have left instantly - but because of the support I found I am in the best possible place I could be given I have PCa.

I commited to my mantra of "Pay Back, Pay Forward" - and I have to honestly say I'm not sure I have the stomach to do that anymore.  What have we become?   Why has this forum gone down the tubes?  How many newbies that so desperately need us have turned away because of all of the pissing contests we present?

I will caveat this with qualifying my comments about "we" - as certainly NOT everyone here has acted as I am describing, but GD-it there is so much negativity here I'm not sure I can handle it anymore, least a newbie.

IMHO there are certainly a few here that for what ever reason, choose to ingite a flame war - and, there are some relatively newer posters that have helped drag this forum down.

I don't know what else to say other than with the current tone of this forum, I'm not sure I can stomach this anymore.

Posted 5/26/2013 5:27 AM (GMT 0)
Well said you are echoing what many of us think.
English Rodger.
Posted 5/26/2013 5:53 AM (GMT 0)
Personal attacks and flame jobs...Wow, I must not be reading the same threads as you are Yooper...The threads I read seldom show anything but helpful advise and support to the other members. The moderators quickly drop the hammer on any transgressors..Anyway, that's what I see from where I'm standing...
Posted 5/26/2013 6:18 AM (GMT 0)
Hello.  I am totally surprised at the titles of some of the threads.  Do you gentlemen realize how much bravery it takes for us - wives, partners, girlfriends, daughters, sisters - to come here seeking help?  I would hope things would be a little warmer for them.  I was even thinking Bud would be upset about this.  Things just seemed so much better in 2010.  I hope all gets better!

BTW, may I ask whom, "a valued brother and Mod quit" is?

Peace,

Aimzee

EDIT:  I don't mean to sound like I am scolding anyone.  Just would like you all to see it from OUR point of view.

Posted 5/26/2013 6:29 AM (GMT 0)
Yooper, you bring up many sad points that can't be denied. Support was, is, and should always be the primary thrust, as it was most of my almost 5 years here. I am amazed sometimes, that when a new person arrives, how few regular posters actually take the time to greet them. In the "old" days here, studies and new developments were discussed like they are now, but not without all the bitterness and egotistic attitude that it often degenerates into now.

We, collectively, have to get back to agreeing to disagree on differences. No way this many people can naturally agree about everything of course.

The enemy, if there has to be one, is PC and what it has done to us and our loved ones, that was what started the theme of a "brotherhood" here several years ago. Somehow, we, collectively again, need to return to those roots.

There is too much fear, anxiety, pain, and suffering that comes with PC to have it any other way.

I understand your anger and frustration, for now, I can only suggest to concentrate on the good, as there is still a lot of good going on.

david in sc
Posted 5/26/2013 10:38 AM (GMT 0)
I have been staying on the sidelines with my occasional "congrat" and bits of info - much less than what I used to do ... some in part to my coping with PCA and some with how some people seem to be on "attack mode" when they do their postings...

- one of the hardest things to remember is that having PCa or any type of cancer - boy or girl - does not elevate you to sainthood.

-there was an individual on HW who would attack me on a regular basis and caused me to pull away from this forum - he acted like a bully and seemed to take delight in stirring up the pot... I took it very personally until I realized - HE WAS THAT WAY BEFORE PCA.

-when I view this forum and see topics locked or heading into a flame war - my first thought is .."what is XXX up to.." or " I wonder who YYY is going after today.."

- and all of my rambling comes back to this...

"I am sorry you have PCa - I am sorry you are angry / disappointed / scared / fed up / not happy being on this rollercoaster / in this Twlight zone and/or feel you are one of the forgotten in the Land of Misfit Toys.... but please try to remember, we are on your side - to help you cope with this stupid disease - and maybe offer some advice and a helping hand."

-we are not the ENEMY - PCa / CANCER is.

-may you all have peace and contentment in this stage of your journey,
sincere hugs,
Bronson

.........
Posted 5/26/2013 11:58 AM (GMT 0)
Yooper,

Stick around you have helped a bunch of guys.

The flaming has been going on ever since I joined ... and new folks have been given good advice during this period.

James C (when he was a moderator) gave me good advice when I was a newbie and thought there was an objectionable post .... Ignore It.
Posted 5/26/2013 12:29 PM (GMT 0)
Yooper, you are an absolute asset to this forum. The board is looking for a moderator, not sure what your time constraints are, but I think you would make a fantastic moderator.

There has been a little tension lately resulting from the AUA guidelines and debates about that. I think overall it's been handled okay. But people will always read between the lines others posts, get irritated, offended, or sometimes look for reasons to get offended. I suppose everyone can do a better job of monitoring the weight/impact of their words but sometimes things just escalate a bit.

In all honesty I've seen worse on this forum before this last two weeks and I've heard that 5 years ago it was far worse.

Let's look at the silver lining here to at least find some positives. I understand that 5 years ago people ridiculed each others treatment choices. Even when I came on board there seemed to be a lot of arguments about treatment choices. Now, it seems to me that all treatment folks have huddled up together and that the issue of choice of treatment no longer creates controvery, it's the issue of testing and what to call low grade cancer that creates controversy :) I think this will mean that the board will be far more unified going forward in advising new patients about the multitude of treatment options, including AS for those that qualify without it turning into a divisive message that can overwhelm a new person. I doubt we are going tog et people on here asking if they should have the PSA test, and I doubt we will have guys here with a G6 asking if they really have cancer, they're going to be asking about treatments, AS and the process. I think we are prepared as a board to provide a completely unified and broad approach that can only benefit a new guy and provide exactly what everyone wants to provide, an education with personal touch and shared experiences. I hope you see what I'm saying.

Seriously, consider the mod role, you'd be another asset in my opinion.
Posted 5/26/2013 12:42 PM (GMT 0)
I second that Yoop......go for it!
Posted 5/26/2013 1:39 PM (GMT 0)
I finally have decided to say something about all of this. I believe in live and let live and help others when you possibly can. When a thread starts to get a bit off track, just dont participate in it. When I read something that I feel is getting a bit childish, I stop reading and certainly dont respond to it. IT just makes it worse to try to one up the other, or make someone think and feel the way you do. It is a fight you will not win, why waste your precious time and energy on this type of thing. There are so many really important things that need my time and attention.

Once Bud passed, I lost a lot of my drive to actively participate in this group, but still check on a daily basis. There is still a lot of great people here with sincere and good intentions. I really dont even know what all this fuss is about and dont want to know. I hope we can all take a moment and remember our thoughts and feelings when first diagnosed and when we found this site. Remember the horror we felt, and how grateful we were when that first person responded to our question, comment or need. I hope I am able to help at least one other feel some comfort. If not on this site, my email is listed and anyone and everyone is welcome to email me personally. I am open to email at all times and will always respond.

Hugs
Susan
Posted 5/26/2013 1:44 PM (GMT 0)
Yoop, well said. Also well said was the idea of you becoming our next moderator. I think you would be an excellent choice...please see the new thread to this effect! Good idea Davidg.

Also, Davidg you are correct about the change in subject matter from five years ago where the most heated debates were about treatment choice. The big difference now is that many of the threads seem to involve name calling and personal attacks. I invite you to look at the Tall Allen thread or the thread I started re moderator opinions or any of the recently locked threads. It's those personal attacks that seem to be the difference and seem to be turning HW into a somewhat toxic environment.

Jim
Posted 5/26/2013 1:58 PM (GMT 0)
Good post Yooper. But in reality this has gone on since I joined in 2009 and likely before that time. I am like Bronson, I chime in to congratulate and to update and to see how people are doing, and look at threads that pertain to me. I havent seen the name calling but then again I am not on here as often as I was at one time. As my friend told me, "dont get down in the mud to wrestle with the pigs."

Having said that, I have left more friends on FB as they get off on tangents including politics and keep on doing it, knowing that it wil cause hard feelings among some. I can do without their friendships. So all in all, it really is not as bad as it could be given the fact we have PCa and are dealing with so much.

Michael

Posted 5/26/2013 2:00 PM (GMT 0)
I haven't been happy with the direction of the forum of late. A couple of things that I've noticed:

- The amount of thread-locking seems to be reaching unprecedented numbers and includes threads that start out with very benign topics.

- We have to be especially careful in our interpretations of the written word as it is extremely vulnerable to misinterpretation as is not accompanied by the body language that would often show a comment to be harmless. I've seen members become extremely upset over what I consider to be fairly benign comments. (And truth be told it has happened to me as well.) Consider if something could be interpreted another way and give the person the benefit of the doubt or simply ask them to clarify before becoming insulted.

- We have to realize that anger is often a reaction to dealing with cancer and try our best not to direct it in places where it should not be directed.

- I suspect some members are occasionally flaming threads that have topics that make them uncomfortable or disagree with so that they will be locked. The site is going to become fairly boring if we never permit unorthodox opinions. Sometimes the best way to react to a thread that you feel is pointless is to ignore it.

- I've met people from forums in person and have been fairly surprised to find that some very aggressive individuals online are very polite and even mild-mannered in person. Why react differently just because one is behind a keyboard?
Posted 5/26/2013 2:50 PM (GMT 0)
Yoop, here is my 2¢.
I'm a believer that the internet should be like real life. If I find a topic (or individual) offensive/stressful/uncomfortable (insert any word), I avoid them. I have learned to surround myself with positive people.

Topics here that turn ugly, I avoid.

If I was at a party or gathering and two people start at each other I wouldn't jump in the thick of it. Everyone at the party sees what's going on and the 2 involved are labeled in everyone's mind. I sometimes feel I have a slightly differing opinion on topics here... I don't feel it necessary to jump in every thread to express myself.

I drop in here every day. Every Day! I feel connected to the people here I don't even know. I usually reserve my comments. Maybe I'm wrong in doing that.
My goal here is to stay informed, and maybe along the way I can give some advice and encouragement. I'm not here to raise my stress level or prove anything to anyone. Maybe I have it all wrong but it works for me.

If a handful of people like to flame and attack, let them. The others at this party can see it. The Mods do a great and thankless job. I could never moderate and so leave full judgment of the rules to them.
I think you'd do a great job, if the thankless commitment wasn't too much for you.
Posted 5/26/2013 2:57 PM (GMT 0)
tooyoung, I think you've got it right. I believe it takes a level of maturity and perspective that not everyone has, I certainly don't.

I hope I didn't open a can of worms suggesting Yooper. It's a very time consuming task and perhaps I should have simply emailed Yooper about it directly.

Clearly Yooper has the right mind/heart for the task, we can all see that.
Posted 5/26/2013 3:06 PM (GMT 0)
Davidg, I think the real answer is very simple. We all need to moderate sometimes.
Posted 5/26/2013 3:26 PM (GMT 0)
Yoop:

Good post and indeed you would be a fine Moderator. However, I do disagree with you. I have been posting here for about 4 years now. I really do NOT see an increase in "problem threads."

These things ebb and flow. Keep in mind that many are under stress, dealing with difficult decisions and/or aggressive cancers and/or SE of treatments. You have to understand that people might get a bit irritable. You have to give them a lot of slack.

Bottom line, these arguments have been going on for years. Nothing is new. Things get heated and then they die down. The ebb and flow continues, just like the sea tides. Yesterday it was supplements and surgery vs. radiation. Today it's overtreatment.

You mentioned that many threads are getting locked. I would urge the moderators to be a little less quick to lock these threads. Heated discussions are not the enemy and in fact they can also be informative. We are adults, even though at times various factors make us act in a non-adult manner. Most of these locked threads would soon die out anyway. We seem to have the ability to back off by ourselves. Maybe you guys should chat among yourselves and perhaps revise the conditions for locking a thread. Certainly scams/huckster threads should be locked immediately. I can see locking threads that become too vile/personal. I don't think many of the locked threads have reached that thresshold.

Yoop-- in short, I see nothing new. JUST IGNORE THREADS YOU DON'T LIKE. There are plenty of other threads.

But this is a good thread, worthy of discussion.

Incidentally, I would again urge the HW member who quit to reconsider.

The Mod. who quit indicates he intended to quit awhile back. Whether that is just a classy way of bowing out without causing animosity, I don't know. But he still posts here.

He contributes a lot and I hope he will still find time to post here.

I also agree with the person who said that folks in person are often quite different than there on-line persona. In a strange sense, one can role play-- albeit perhaps not intentionally -- while behind a keyboard. How many of you would get into so many discussions/arguments in real life. I know I have expressed fears/worries/concerns on HW but not nearly so much in real life. I have been described as relaxed, calm, and humorous by my relatives, friends, and colleagues. But through HW I can express things to a much greater extent than in real life.

(Also, I am not this long-winded in real life)

Mel

 

Post Edited (compiler) : 5/26/2013 9:30:17 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/26/2013 3:40 PM (GMT 0)
Well said Davidg, Yooper, come and go as you feel, have a rant when you want to, don't be sucked into doing anything you don't want to. So as to clarify. It is no ones intent to suck anyone in, there is nothing but goodwill for us all, from us all. We all have are moments, we all have PCA and I totally agree with the Tattman , Pca, does not give us 007 status{ license to kill}. I can think of plenty folks here who would be good moderators, but a volunteer means self initiated. With my apologies to the military, where this is not the case. Davidg intuitively realized this himself with the can of worms statement. Once we realize our real bond, this will settle down. In the meantime share yourselves in this forum, attack yourself , if you must. Don't be fooled, there is only one enemy here and this statement is not a veiled one, it is my opinion. Allow me that…… I for one do not want to be recognized, I want to be realized. Logo PS off to exercise and say hello to life 545am HST, south swell on the rise…….
Posted 5/26/2013 4:03 PM (GMT 0)
A few observations:

What will new members think of us? Actually, if you look at the threads started by new members -- the ones with titles like "Help! Too Scared to Breathe!!!" you will see that we acquit ourselves fairly well. We pull together. We give calming, sensible advice. Guys who have been at one another hammer and tongs in one of our cranky theoretical threads stand politely in line to offer their insight and encouragement. If anything I think we are doing better.

On the other hand we all have better things to do than squabble like bored children in the back seat on a long car trip. I don't think the board has turned ugly. I just think the AUA guidelines have given us some very uncomfortable ideas to grapple with and different members cope with them in different ways.

I, too, think Yoop would make a good moderator, although he does lack one qualification that we look for: he doesn't make quite enough trouble. One of the ways you can calm down a board is to trick the guys with the short fuses into being moderators. Then they realize that they have to think twice before they say anything and they will self-moderate and the board will be one hot-head cooler for it.
Posted 5/26/2013 4:20 PM (GMT 0)
One would think this forum would have the most maturity since its populated with a good number of senior citizens. Maybe it would be wise for those who cannot get along to do something else with your time rather than take out grouchiness here in a forum that is supposed to be known for its wise advice and comforting of its hurting membership.
Posted 5/26/2013 4:27 PM (GMT 0)
I'm with those who don't see what the big deal is all about. This is a very controversial and confusing time in the history of PC diagnosis and treatment, and the occasional heated debates on HW reflect that, as they should. I've found very rare instances of personal animus flaring up, and those are easy to bypass. The vast majority of posts here are informational, helpful, and comforting. I've not seen one that left me "disgusted, disappointed, embarrased." Let's not blow this all out of proportion.
Posted 5/26/2013 4:28 PM (GMT 0)
greetingz,
Judge Judy says men don't grow up until 50. If ever.

:-)

I'm starting to believe her. I don't recall in recent times ever using the moderators on our ladies here.

Some men here seem so....how shall I say....emotional.

Tony
Posted 5/26/2013 4:31 PM (GMT 0)
Tony, maybe the moderators here should be ladies. Most of them at HW CP are women, and they run a tight ship there for the most part.

david
Posted 5/26/2013 4:33 PM (GMT 0)
Davidg,
That was a good post. When new ideas are posted that don't conform to our belief system, some get uncomfortable and the natural reaction is to blame the poster. As davidg pointed out many of these ideas eventually become accepted and the controversy dies out. The bad ideas die out on their own and never appear again. This board does a very good job accepting new ideas and rejecting the bad, but it takes a while for the good ones to take hold, but they eventually do. It is uncomfortable to accept new ideas. Brachy, second opinions, and taking one's time to make a decision are a few that have taken hold for the better. Snake oil supplements and non conventional treatments have had a lot of posts, but have never been accepted.
Yoop, Your posts have been well thought out and you have done an excellent job of "playing it forward". Your absence would be a loss.
Controversy will always be a part of this disease and hence a part of this board. Debating ideas is a good thing; attacking those who disagree is inappropriate.
JT
Posted 5/26/2013 4:36 PM (GMT 0)
Hahaha...

Be careful what you wish for? Unfortunately, we tried that before and some really nice ladies were treated poorly. They were terrific moderators too. But there are reasons that won't work well here.

Tony
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