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Should I take Pomi-t?

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Posted 6/25/2013 9:26 PM (GMT 0)
I am trying to decide whether to start taking pomi-t, in light of the recent (and, I thought, very impressive) phase II study results showing a significant reduction in post-treatment psa levels for those who took pomi-t, compared to the placebo (control) group.

But my situation is a bit different because, as far as I know, I do not have prostate cancer, so I am focused on prevention.  (I have a family history of prostate cancer, and a higher-than normal psa for my age -- but not high enough to justify a biopsy).

I know the pomi-t study was not focused on prevention.  So it is, for my purposes, imperfect information.  But sometimes we have to make decisions based on imperfect information. 

I am inclined to believe I should take it because the cost is irrelevant to me, it might have a benefit, and it is probably not likely to be harmful, given its ingredients.   

My main concern would be the possibility that it could "mask" cancer, by lowering psa but not doing anything to reduce cancer -- in which case all it would do is impede detection.  (It has been suggested that this is the case with saw palmetto, for example).  If I thought there was a material "masking" risk, I would not take it.

I know there are some people on this board, such as Ralph, John T, Tall Allen, and Casey (not to leave anyone off - just some who come to mind) who are quite knowledgeable.  Anyone care to offer some advice?

I know none of you are doctors -- but I value your input anyway.

Thanks, Medved

Posted 6/25/2013 9:37 PM (GMT 0)
I am confused, Medved. You have almost 800 posts here at HW PC, and you don't or never had had PC? Is that correct?

To answer your question in the fewest number of words, No. I wouldn't take it, there are oncologisits that would argue that things like that do indeed have a masking effect. Others, of course, would say know they don't. Not going to be a clear cut consensus.

david
Posted 6/25/2013 9:46 PM (GMT 0)
My 800 pales in comparison to your posting history, Purg. Compared to you, I feel like a newbie. The explanation for my participation is this: When my dad was sick with prostate cancer, I found these boards to be useful. He was not interested in reading about prostate cancer on the internet, but he valued some of the information I was able to pass along to him. It gave him some ideas about things to raise with his doctors, etc. I also read several hundred articles and studies, which was, to some extent, useful in trying to help him with the journey. I occasionally joined him in meetings with his doctors. At one point, when he was dying of prostate cancer, he suggested to me that maybe I could use what I had learned, through pretty extensive reading, to give some advice to others. That made sense to me. So I try to give a little input, from time to time, if there is a question on which I think I could contribute something. In addition, I am in a high-risk category, because of my family history and psa, so I figure it is good for me to be knowledgeable. I hope, Purg, that you find this to be an acceptable basis for me to participate here. If you think I should not do so, I would, of course, respect your view.
Posted 6/25/2013 11:27 PM (GMT 0)
The ingredients in Pomi-T are all easily available at any vitamin/health food store or on eBay...And at considerably higher dosage levels..Can these supplements PREVENT prostate cancer? There is nothing out there that even suggests that...
Posted 6/25/2013 11:36 PM (GMT 0)
medved,

not suggesting that at all. been following your posts all along, and assumed you had PC. not a problem, didn't mean that at all. hope you never get it, and with your family history, understand your concern, think I would be concerned too. never been a "known" case of PC on either my father's side or my wife's side of our families. doesn't mean some of the men didn't have it, and simply died with it, as we often talk about here. my uro said, still, someone has to be the first one.

your contributions and posts are well received, informative, and welcomed, keep em coming

david
Posted 6/26/2013 12:04 AM (GMT 0)
I too am considering taking this supp and am interested in others input.

medved - I've seen and appreciated your posts since I first found my way here - but never knew your (or your Father's) background = and why you post here.

Now I know - and BTW I call it "Pay Forward" and you're obviously in. Thanks for being here.

Posted 6/26/2013 12:11 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Medved,

Alll the ingredients look good to me - nothing there known to cause harm, and in lab tests they all look good. I don't know if it will help with prevention, but if it makes you feel more safe to take it and cost is not a concern -- then, why not? To my mind, the big issue with such supplements is bioavailability.

If there's one medication that looks really good at preventing PC, it's the 5ARis (Avodart or Proscar). Do you have any evidence of BPH? If so, the 5ARi will fix it and may prevent PC. It actually makes the PSA more sensitive to PC by getting rid of the PSA that's due to BPH. If PSA rises while you're on it, then the suspicion is raised for PC. It will reset your baseline to a lower level at first, and then you'd have to track it from that point on. Good discussion to have with your Uro.

- Allen
Posted 6/26/2013 12:17 AM (GMT 0)
Can these supplements PREVENT prostate cancer? There is nothing out there that even suggests that...

one of my oncologists believes it could in a very small percentage of cases.  as time passes I have been slowly paring back on the supplements but POM is one I don't plan to give up. 

I think with the evidence out there a guy with PC or with the propensity to someday have PC is crazy not to take POM.

ed

Posted 6/26/2013 12:42 AM (GMT 0)
Ed,

Do you mean POM Wonderful or Pomi-t? I assume the first.

I thought I've seen a great deal of press on green tea being a good preventative measure against PC.

Pomi-t is nothing more than the real stuff (pomegranate, broccoli, green tea, and tumeric). I see nothing wrong with taking it. Me personally - I eat broccoli every day, drink green tea frequently and take Pom and Curcumin supplements already at a much higher dose.

I also eat a lot of nuts and olive oil, which lately there has been some reports on these.

Who knows, but I figure That I might as well eat right and exercise since these are things I can do.

Jerry
Posted 6/26/2013 1:17 AM (GMT 0)
Jerry -- I take POM wonderful and turmeric and a couple of pothers things.

 

Posted 6/26/2013 1:26 AM (GMT 0)
Regarding nothing out there to support Pomegranate Juice being helpful or not - this is from the National Cancer Institute article on "Prostate Cancer and Pomegranate Juice" -

"In a study reported in 2006, researchers observed the effects of PJ on PSA values in prostate cancer patients (N = 48) who had rising PSA levels following treatment with surgery or radiation therapy. The study participants drank 8 ounces of PJ daily (570 mg/day total polyphenol gallic acid equivalents) for up to 33 months. Drinking PJ was associated with statistically significant increases in PSA doubling time (PSADT). After 33 months of follow-up, the median PSADT increased from 11.5 months to 28.7 months (P < .001). In addition, LNCaP cells were treated in vitro with the subjects’ serum before and after the PJ intervention. Results of the in vitro experiments showed a decrease in cell growth and an increase in apoptosis following PJ treatment."

 

Definitive, no - but results, yes.

Posted 6/26/2013 1:41 AM (GMT 0)
If pom just masked the psa, what would be the point of taking it. Placebo effect ? The studies would be scoffed at if they only masked. I mean for what purpose would any one need to mask their PSA. There are drugs that do mask PSA, but that is not their reason for being, it just happens and you need to know that when you take that a drug with that S/E. So forget that concern period. More to your point tho. Pom is a high intensity antioxidant and don't think you can get too many of them so it should act as a preventative in the same sense, strawberries do or other anti oxidant rich foods, arguably do. Having said that, for an agent to actually slow the doubling time of pca patients other factors may be involved. Im not up on the studies tho, but in early stages of my journey, I thought, why not. so I take it , but not regularly. One thing on Pom, is the sugar content could trump the antioxident, just a thought, not a hunch. Side note, Hi intensity cardio exercise releases, plenty, plenty,inordinately so, free radicals, which can bombard cells and effect Dna. Not a hypothesis, a fact. for those who don't know antixoixidents neutralize free radicals. Another fact so if you do a lot of cardio, get plenty antioxidants .
Bottom line antioxidants are good for you whatever is going on with your health.
Ps cells affected by free radical, are highly suspicious as being prone to cancer.
Posted 6/26/2013 2:42 AM (GMT 0)
A Yooper-

Medved was asking if it were helpful in preventing PC. That study was among men already treated.
Posted 6/26/2013 12:24 PM (GMT 0)
I've looked at the POM-T suppliment and might buy some for vacations, etc. I'm concerned with bioavailability as well and prefer to get nutrients from whole foods and not suppliments if possible. That's just a preference though, not saying taking pom-t isn't better than doing nothing.
Posted 6/26/2013 12:45 PM (GMT 0)
TA I did read and do understand that Medved was asking about prevention but thanks for pointing that out in case others get confused by my post.

I was simply making the point that through my research I found definitive results and benefits from taking Pomegranate juice - same goes for cruciferous veggies and oregano - all of which I intake on a near daily basis.
Posted 6/26/2013 1:11 PM (GMT 0)
Here's my take on your original question. Thanks for asking.

First of all, there are growing mountains of evidence about the benefits good nutrition plays in combating cancer. Most of the pomegranate work, in specific, has been done for men fighting recurrent disease. With all the solid data out there, it's hard to imagine any man with recurrent disease not taking daily pomegranate. Humans have a complex diet, so don't expect there ever to be the FDA approval on cancer prevention for anything. I've written in detail about this in the past. I'd be glad to dig it out of my database and re-post it if you'd like.

Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that pomegranate or the other nutrients mask PSA. Zero. Although pockets of patient myth exist. Furthermore, absolutely none of those nutrients are bad for you.

Now let me extend the conversation into my own personal perspectives. I have learned to eat very well. Lots of plant-based foods; lots of color. Don't feed the cancer; any cancer. This extends to include a couple glasses of red wine on most nights. But I'm not perfect. I generally use supplements to supplement my good diet on days when it's not so good. Vitamin D is taken on a daily basis (low level), but pomegranate is taken more "as needed." I feel that I am stacking the odds in my favor.

If I were to write a book about "Cancer tips and advice," I would write about stacking the odds in one's favor.
Posted 6/26/2013 1:20 PM (GMT 0)
Only problem I got with pomegranate is the cost....like 12 bucks for a small bottle. Ive been buying the cranberry/pomegranate mixture at a much lower cost. Maybe I should be drinking the straight stuff though. I also drink a lot of green tea and eat spinach and broccoli often. My Uro felt the Pom was a good idea as well.

Post Edited (Casper319) : 6/26/2013 7:29:33 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/26/2013 1:34 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

To Logo: I understand that "masking" cancer (impairing detection) would not be the *purpose* of pomi-t, or any other supplement or medication. But my concern is that it might have that effect. (It has been said that saw palmetto does this, for example, and 5alpha-reductase inhibitors could do this, if one does not make the appropriate adjustments).

To Tall Allen: I do have some urinary symptoms (mostly, nocturia, and a bit of frequency), though I do not have an enlarged prostate, as best my internal medicine doctor and urologist can tell.  I tried an alpha blocker, but it made me dizzy.  So I have just learned to live with it. I have done a fair amount of reading concerning the use of 5alpha-reductase inhibitors (finasteride or dutasteride) for chemoprevention, including the results of the PCPT and REDUCE studies. I have also discussed this with an internal medicine doctor, an oncologist, and two very well-regarded urologists both of whom practice at one of the nation's leading academic medical centers, and one of whom was involved in the underlying studies. (Overkill? Maybe. But I like to make well thought out decisions about important matters). What I found is there is just no consensus. I could go into more detail here, but it would just take up server space and I don't think most readers would be interested. It will suffice to say that, for me, it was a very close call, but I decided not to take a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor. I guess I will never know whether that was the right decision. It is interesting, though, how little clinical use of 5alpha-reductase inhibitors there seems to be -- in the real world -- for chemoprevention. One would think there would be more of it, given the REDUCE study results. It does not seem to have caught on. And, of course, it would be off-label, at this point, given the FDAs decision.

Casey - I take vitamin D as well.  I had a 25(OH)D test done, which revealed that I was at the very low end of the reference range.  With 1000 i.u. a day supplementation, I am into the range sufficiently.   I also drink red wine nearly every night.  If the resveratrol helps my health, that is great.  But I would do it anyway, as I like good wine.

By the way, I do eat a very healthy diet. It is not perfect, but probably better than 98% of the population.

And in any event, if I do get prostate cancer, you guys will be around to give me advice, so it is ok...

Post Edited (medved) : 6/26/2013 7:42:04 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/26/2013 6:19 PM (GMT 0)
Data on supplements and PCA is incomplete. No clear answer yet.
Posted 6/26/2013 8:26 PM (GMT 0)
Casper, If you have access to Sam's club where you are, the price is much cheaper for a larger bottle of POM juice. The 100%, no sugar good stuff!
Posted 6/26/2013 8:49 PM (GMT 0)
I take pomegranate extract from swanson vitamins.
I get kidney stones with green tea so I avoid it.
Take a broccoli extract pill when there is no broccoli intake.
Take a turmeric pill each day.
If these polyphenols retard the progression of prostate cancer, then I would expect them to lesson the aggressiveness of prostate cancer if it arises.
Posted 6/26/2013 10:20 PM (GMT 0)
Medved, understand, I was, and still am confused as to why Any one would create a study of this magnitude, if there was any hint of a masking effect, as it would obliterate the purpose of the study. Which is, take this, it has a real chance of reducing your doubling time. Im not up on the studies, but thought they were all about recurrence, not prevention. i gave you my ideas, mainly on the preventing characteristics.. You mention your concern about the mask and tried to answer the best I could briefly, as that was , to me, not the main thrust of your thread. I guess my question to you is, Why do you see that as a possibility. Im missing the connection with saw pa;metto. they are both supplements , according to you,Palmetto masks psa, and i have no reason not believe you, but do not see a logical progression. To use Mels specialty, Math or Finite math in this case. Palmetto is a supplement, palmetto masks psa, Pom is a supplement, therefore Pom Masks Psa. In a finite math class that would be an error. Mel if you're there, did I pass on that one. side story for mel. I took a math class and on one test, due to a dumb premise mistake ended up with score of 5 out of 100. I successfully argued, yes the premise was faulty, bone head error, but the logic based on the faulty premise, from then on proved I understood the concept. He changed my grade to 95. Isn't that funny. To those out there. Finite math is a course that fulfilled a math requirement, but is more a class on logic, syllogisms and the like. Very real and well, logical equations involve. I enjoyed it immensely, but as Mel might point out hasn't helped my communication skills, at least in his view. Regards all Logo
Posted 6/26/2013 10:41 PM (GMT 0)
The "masking" issue is critical to me, not a peripheral issue -- because, for me personally, that would be the only reason not to take it. In other words, if it would impair the detection of prostate cancer then it would be counterproductive, and potentially dangerous.

You then ask why I think it is even possible that pomi-t might mask cancer. Fair question. The answer is this: it appears to me that some substances which lower psa also kill cancer cells. Other substances that lower psa probably do not kill cancer cells, or at least kill cancer cells at a rate that is very substantially slower than the rate at which the same substance lowers psa. This is the masking potential. So, in my mind, before one takes any substance for prevention purposes, he should ask whether it will likely slow down or prevent cancer, or will just lower psa and thereby impede detection. I am NOT saying that pomi-t has this effect simply because saw palmetto allegedly does. I am just saying that because some substances have this effect, while others do not, it is a prudent question to ask about any prevention regimen.

Regarding your question about why anyone would create a study if there was any hint of a masking effect, people create studies all the time without knowing all of the effects of the substance they are studying. Look at the SELECT trial, for example. You could ask "why would anyone create that study if they thought vitamin E could increase the risk of prostate cancer?" Well, they probably did not expect that result, but, as they said in Ain't Misbehavin, "One never know, do one?"

[By the way, I probably will take these pills. I suspect they probably do more good than harm].
Posted 6/27/2013 6:26 AM (GMT 0)
Casper -- POM wonderful capsules are less than a buck a day and are available through subscription.

ed

 

Posted 6/27/2013 6:33 AM (GMT 0)
medved , got it., well maybe not. One point. Don't the pom studies only make the claim that the Pom reduces the doubling time and not that it kills cancer. That for whatever reason it slows the spread, which would cause the psa to increase at a slower rate , not decrease it all . Are you saying that the slower rate of increase is possibly a mask that it is in fact doubling as fast as it always has. I really don't know, not playing devils advocate here. IDK, wouldn't a reputable study have factored that possibility in. I know very little about studies but have intuitively, from the few I have read, have noted their ability to in some way prove what they want, like with statistics. My lack of knowledge here may make it difficult to understand and do not want do laden you with the burden of educating. Its of minor concern to me, as I know I have/had Pca but no recurrence. so not a biggie. You just like the forum, yeah, to participate when you do not even have Pca. I like that, don't even know why, but I do. Am aware of some negative indicators you have pointed out elsewhere, but still most people would just say, Hey Im clean, Im otta here.
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