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Posted 8/29/2013 2:10 PM (GMT 0)
I've been suffering from malaise for I don’t know how long. I'm always tired, grumpy, lazy, and don't sleep well. I read a book titled "Testosterone for Life" by Abraham Morgentaller about a year ago. Also around Oct 2012, I complained about my malaise and my uro performed a total t and free t test. The results were 345 total and 46 free. The normal range for the free T for this type of test was 35-155. He said that 46 was good. I went in to my GP and asked him to check everything else. He commented on my earlier T test and said if my Uro would give him the ok, he would start T replacement therapy based upon the Oct 2012 findings but would not prescribe T without his approval because of my PC. My GP said that the t levels are low enough to cause my symptoms and he would simply like to try it to see if it fixes me. Along with some other tests, my GP ran another T test at that time and the results were lower with a total T of 262 and free T at 35. My Uro finally stood up and took notice of that last test ordered by my GP. He then ordered some more tests: LH, Estrogen, Total T and Free T. LH was normal at 4.6. Estrogen was high at 144 pg/ml. Total T was 200 and Free T was 32.6. He wanted to start me on androgel but I asked him to give me the shots. From what I read, the gel doesn't always work and you have the risk of it getting on your wife and in my case our 5 month old grandaughter I just don't want to risk it. Plus, I'm so tired of being tired. I just want to feel normal ASAP. I don’t want to waste any more time with a treatment that may not work. I now have two small vials of testosterone cypionate which is a four week supply. Tomorrow/Friday morning I have an appointment to have my uro’s medical assistant show me the proper method to inject myself and get my first shot. Yippe

My GP said my sleep troubles could be caused by low T. That doesn't make sense to me so I’m asking if any of you have experienced this? I go to sleep easily but wake up after 2.5-6 hours and cannot go back to sleep. The night before last I got 2.5 hours of sleep. Last night was 6 hours. I ping pong back and forth sometimes. I don’t take naps. Maybe it is related to just simply having a sense of well being that normal T will help. I just don’t know. Also regarding my ED, I’m becoming a fairly good pill responder. I’m also hoping for a little improvement in the erection department. They are not as hard as pre RALP. If anyone has any experience in this area my question is will T help my erections get harder?

Thanks for any and all inputs
Posted 8/29/2013 2:23 PM (GMT 0)
My urologists goes more by the symptoms than the T score itself. You did not mention libido which is a question he always asked.

It's ironic I used to be treated for Low T and tried to raise it with injections and then with Axiron and now on Lupron trying to minimize it.

The other thing you may want to have checked is your serum vitamin D levels. Low vitamin D often accompanies low T.

Testosterone does not cause PCa but advanced PCa does feed off it.

As you can see from my history below, my T levels have been all over the place over the years.

Date PSA Testosterone
20090720 1.0 153 Low
20100128 1.3 906 High
20100728 1.6 870 High
20110107 1.6 263
20110805 1.2 140 Low
20120201 1.7 646 assumed PSA was just getting back to baseline
20120822 2.62 325 PSA doubling rate of 0.66 years flagged as a concern
20130115 3.68 293 PSA Doubling now 0.48 years led to biopsy
20130426 0.90 024 Low T thanks to Lupron, PSA also dropped a lot
20130808 0.68
Posted 8/29/2013 2:43 PM (GMT 0)
I've been on T meds for almost two years now... I stopped at about the six month mark for 2 months and started it back up.

Can't say I noticed any difference in the "pep in my step" (uros words).

But, I'm still on the meds. My original number was 275 and has since been as high as 875... I now hoover in the 700+ range.

Then there's the part where every year we switch insurance companies and I get to switch meds. Went from Andro Gel to Testim and will be going back to Andro Gel.
Posted 8/29/2013 3:08 PM (GMT 0)
Steve n Dallas: Did you have any of the symptoms before starting treatment?

Lupron Jim: I feel my libido is ok. I do enjoy sex.

Post Edited (Desertrat1) : 8/29/2013 9:11:02 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/29/2013 3:57 PM (GMT 0)
I am on Lupron an have been so for past year. I have last testosterone level of 20. I have definitely had decrease in my sleep patterns. muscle mass and increased general fatigue. I often having difficulty sleeping usually awakening at 3 in the AM and usually difficult to go back to sleep. It seems to be some better as time has passed.I never had sleep problems prior to this. I feel that low testosterone has affected my sleep pattern. You do have to be careful that your PCa is "cured" when adding testosterone so that you do not get increasing PSA. Just my 2 cents worth.
James
Posted 8/29/2013 7:33 PM (GMT 0)
Desertrat1, my symptoms were minimal....general fatigue and I was getting concerned with memory loss issues... Libido has been next to nothing for a good while now...

Not much has changed since being on the T meds.

I'm lucky to sleep 6 hours each night which I don't equate to low T. I turned into a hard core morning person many years ago.
Posted 8/30/2013 1:47 AM (GMT 0)
Desertrat1........your symptoms are typical for someone who tests out at your levels. Your levels are not "normal". Even if they fall within the lab range, it doesn't mean it's normal for you. I've posted on here before about T supplementation, but most guys don't want to hear the "up" side of it. Morgenthaler's book is a good one, and there are others that back up his thinking. I've been on T replacement now for over 2 1/2 years. First with compounded cream, then shots, then just shots of HCG, then compounded gel, then back to shots. I'm currently taking Testosterone Cypionate, with HCG shots. Although the old protocol calls for 200 mg every 2 weeks, it's far better if you lower the dosage and up the frequency. A year ago I was taking a 50 mg shot every 5 days, and that kept me in the 750-950 range. I administer my own shots. I also take an estrogen inhibior (Arimidex) to limit the conversion of T to E. I'm seeing Dr. Eugene Shippen, and he's been guiding me since last July. I had the same sleep pattern difficulties you've experienced, with all the other symptoms mentioned here--low libido, energy, foggy brain, etc.....eveything is better except the libido, which seems to be the hardest thing to dial in. I've experienced windows where I feel my old self again, but they're fleeting due to the fluctuations in E & T. I think i'm getting closer to the right timing/dosage of T, combined with the right amount of Arimidex. Get a urogologist, or better yet, an endocrinologist, who understands the nuances. Educate youreslf beyond the Morgenthaler book, too.........you can see my signature, and our stats are fairly similar. My T levels were in the low 300's before I started supplementation.......if you don't want to clog the forum with this thread, but would like to exchange info via email, mine is listed. Steve N Dallas and I have exchanged such a while ago when he first started. Hope this helps.........just make sure you keep a watch on your PSA. Mine has remanined undetectable, and I'll be at 5 years since treatmnent this coming January.

Arnie

Posted 8/30/2013 2:33 PM (GMT 0)
Arnie thanks for the encouraging words. Yes our stats are similar except my anniversary will be two years this January. You are younger and have been a zero longer. My uro wanted me to wait another 4 months but I threatened to go to mexico and get it. I'm serious, I'm so sick of being useless that I don't want to live like this. I'll take my chances because all the new evidence supports what I want to do. My Uro wants me to inject 1/2ml of Testosterone Cypionate every week. He says weekly shots make for a more consistent T level and he doesn't like the spike you get when you double the dose and wait two weeks. My estrogen is also high at 144 pg/ml with the lab saying males should be 130 or less. My uro is concerned that I will soon be making even more E once there is more T to convert to E and having a T spike because of biweekly injections would exacerbate the E. My LH is well within the normal range. Once my T gets within the normal range the doc will tackle the E conversion process. I cannot remember the drug's name, the foggy brain issue, but I do remember he said it is an off label drug. He also commented that off label drugs will probably be the next thing insurance companies will drop. Looking forward to my first shot in 45 minutes. The doc's MA is going to show me how to inject myself and then I'm on my own. At least it shouldn't bring up the issues I had with trimix injections. I am cautiously optimistic about feeling better soon. I know I should see some improvement with the higher T but it will be 10 weeks before I get another blood test for PSA, T, E, etc. At that time I expect to get a prescription for something like Arimidex. I know it will be a long process getting back in balance.
thanks again
Posted 8/30/2013 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
My T level is 11 and I sleep like a baby. Of course I have to get up several times during the night for a pee break, but I fall right back to dream land.
Posted 8/30/2013 5:47 PM (GMT 0)
Desertrat1,
A couple of years ago we had some discussion on this issue. It is important to have a physician that knows what to do. This is no simple matter. See that thread at:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=2264326&g=2264326#m2264326

Wish you the best results,

RalphV
Posted 8/30/2013 5:59 PM (GMT 0)
I wish I could fall back to sleep. Human hormones are strange things IMHO.
Posted 9/1/2013 3:54 AM (GMT 0)

Hi guys,

 

I joined the forum because my husband had Da Vinci surgery for prostate cancer in May 2013.  We're doing great, but have some questions about Trimix.  As I was perusing the threads, this one caught my eye.

 

I'm pretty knowledgeable about testosterone therapy.  Here's a bit of history about me.  Hysterectomy in 1987, did estrogen for 16 years but no testosterone therapy.  In 2003, after moving to Arizona, my new gyn sent out a newsletter with symptoms (for women) of low T.  I could check off almost every symptom.  No libido was the biggest symptom.

 

I have been getting Subcutaneous Hormone Pellets of estradiol and testosterone for 9 years.  I get them about 3 times per year.  These are tiny compressed pellets about the size of a grain of rice that get inserted under the skin of my butt.   They drastically changed my life for the better, but that's not the point of this post. 

 

I started joining menopause and hysterectomy forums to share my story.   I started what is now one of the largest Yahoo groups in support of hormones/pellets, I am a moderator of another forum, have a couple Facebook pages for them as well.  I've helped a lot of women and some men find doctors that do pellet therapy.   I know a pharmacist that makes pellets who is a wealth of knowledge.  I make no money, just enjoy helping people.

 

Here's where it starts pertaining to you guys.  Pellets have been around for over 70 years.  Most pellets come from compounding pharmacies like Trimix does.  However, Testosterone pellets called Testopel have been FDA approved for men, not women.  (Not fair!) 

 

Pellets give you a consistent dose and your body only takes what it needs.  There are no highs/lows, surges/ebbs, etc.   Guys generally go 4-6 months between inserts.  They are not metabolized by your liver or stomach.  Here is the procedure:  Doc injects lidocaine in your rear to numb it.  A very tiny incision is made and using a trocar the pellets are inserted in a fan shape.  A few steri-strips and a bandaid and you're done.  5 minute office visit.

 

My husband started T pellets 2 years ago.  His Total T got down to 197.  He had problems sleeping, concentrating, getting/keeping erections, having orgasms, energy, motivation to work out, getting up several times at night to sleep.  He would get 6 200mg pellets for a total of 1200mgs.   Within 4 days, he felt great.  He started waking with erections, would get hard easier, stay hard and orgasms were easy and even a few times have 2 within 30 minutes and was very horny!  He had the energy to work out, slept better, didn't get up to pee, really felt great!

 

So when he was diagnosed with pc, I was filled with guilt.  I thought the testosterone pellets were the culprit.  However, 3 surgeons that we talked to told us that the pellets were his "guardian angel" and were the reason they were able to discover his cancer so early. 

 

His urologist/surgeon said after 9 months and 3 psa tests as undectable, he can get back on T pellets.  He can't wait, he feels he really needs them. 

 

So normal T ranges are from about 250 - 1100.   Different labs might be higher or lower.  Guys can start feeling low T symptoms when under 500.   So if a doctor says a guy with T of 350 is normal, I say: Normal for what?  No libido, absent erections, pee a lot, moody, tired, no energy guy?  Then make him abnormal!

 

I saya the same to women.  When  a doctor tells a menopausal woman her estradiol levels are normal, they probably are for a woman of a certain age.  Again I say: Normal for what?  A hot flashing, night sweating, mood, *****y, tired, no libido, can't sleep, dried up hormonal woman?  NO thank you, I don't want to be normal. 

 

That is the key for both men and women.  Our levels might be normal based on historical data, but NOT where they need to be to feel good.

 

Ok, I'll be happy to help with information about the pellets for men or women but now, I need to keep looking for info on Trimix.

Posted 9/1/2013 3:34 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the great post AZ sunshine. I live in Glendale and I see you live in Scottsdale, so if you and your husband ever want to get together and talk about Trimix, I'll be glad to give you my .02. You can click on my online name, Desertrat1, and you will find my email address within my profile. It also helps if you put your email address on your profile for reasons that I don't want to get into right now.

I kept records when I was injecting, and I can tell you that I injected 111 times. I still have an open prescription for trimix and still may refill it at some point. I respond fairly well to pills. I do have some issues with keeping the woody going and hoping the T will help that along but that isn't the primary reason for wanting T. I'm tired of being tired is the main reason for wanting T.

Here is a link to my ED recovery after RALP:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=2766798
Posted 9/1/2013 4:15 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, AZ, thanks for the post and keep up the good work spreading the word and helping others. I'd like to have a conversation and exchange info on pellets. As Desertrat1 has posted, you can click on my screen name and my profile will contain my email address. Shoot me an email, if you would, at your convenience. Unlike Desertrat1, I'm out here in Delaware, and I couldn't just slide by to discuss this over coffee

VIEW IMAGE

Arnie

Posted 9/1/2013 5:17 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks guys!  I have added my email address to my signature.  Please feel free to email me.  I have a list of compounding pharmacies that make pellets.  The best way to find a pellet (or BHRT) doc is to contact them.  I will do a new post with that info.
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