NEW! Gat Goren, Part 4. Now with PAE and LUTS!

Zoesman:
Thanks for your posts. Your experience is truly fascinating, and helps shed some more light on the GG treatment mechanism. It's posts like these that keep me coming back to the board.
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All you other lurkers out there:
If you have undergone similar procedures--with either positive *or* negative outcomes--please "pay it forward" and come out of the closet! I personally would *love* to read more such reports (either + or -), as would many of our other forum members, I'm sure.
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Martin:
Thanks for the details on your T and Free-T. You are truly lucky. This is an indication that normal function was helped by the procedure. My T and especially Free T *did* increase after my GG but only from an abysmally low and super-variable pre-procedure level. I'm sorry that you never experienced improvement in other areas presumably due to the unusual shape of your prostate.
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ClapTheHammer:
You and Zoesman point out that there have been *no* "academic trials" of the GG procedure. By "academic trials" you no doubt mean clinical trials--ideally at several sites--sponsored by an academic institution, which are the customary hosts of clinical trials in the U.S. You are both right that there have been *no* such multi-center clinical trials.

And your argument in discounting the GG effect based on the lack of such trials is quite defensible.

I disagree with your conclusion, but not because of any logical flaw in your argument. Your reasoning is sound. I disagree with your conclusion AS IT PERTAINS TO MY PARTICULAR CASE simply because I have private information that you don't have: I have observed improvement in myself and even have ultrasound reports that show prostate shrinkage (and lab tests showing modest increases in T and Free-T levels). It cannot be ruled out that my case is an exception. But at least it proves to me that Gat's peer-reviewed published papers on his patients might have some validity after all--or conservatively stated: "might be true for at least some patients"--despite the lack of confirmation from any multi-center clinical trial. But without my "private information", I would find your argument very persuasive. (It was desperation rather than logic that prompted my original decision to have the procedure.)

I will not presume to give advice to you because I don't know that you would have my results (or any results). For all I know, my results might be very unusual.

The "academic trials" that we all desire are extremely expensive, often running into the millions of dollars. It's not clear to me which private or public entities would have both the incentive and the financial wherewithal to sponsor these. They do not use any proprietary drug or medical device that is under patent protection (except for the procedure itself, which Dr. Gat has apparently patented). But I agree that such studies *should* be sponsored, presumably by some arm of the US federal government. There are several agencies of the US federal government that could theoretically sponsor such research, but unfortunately their funding has been trimmed back these past few years due to fiscal restraints (namely: "large and chronic federal budget deficits"). Many promising projects aren't being funded in this environment.

As I posted several months ago, I believe that Gat could be in the running for a Nobel prize, if such trials are undertaken and the data come out to support his hypotheses while he's still alive.

It is true that many patients have not had my results. This is the case with our friend Martin, among others. That said, six months is not enough time to decide whether the treatment works. At the six-month time point in my own case, I could *not* report anything more than a very modest decrease in discomfort. At six months, I believed that the treatment had failed me. As I posted before, I had sudden and slight improvements at 3.5 months and 6.5 months and later, with "plateaus" in-between.

In case you've not seen it, here's Dr. Gat on Youtube receiving his Ph.D. for his "G-G" research at the University of Gent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-srBF9luVAw

I'm suspicious of "loners" in medicine, but it doesn't look to me that Gat is such a "loner." It seems to me that I am not the only person convinced of the value of his theories.

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 3/23/2014 1:38:02 PM (GMT-6)

zoesman said...

If one of the medical school research departments does not yet want to pick up and run with the faulty plumbing hypothesis, perhaps we as a group could crowd source enough data to make a plausible case for it. if we could plot out pr vol,sT,fT,psa, and # of awakenings for each GG or similar case at for example 6 month intervals that might be sufficient to put this on the radar.

Zoesman: Some posters here are trying to track our outcomes. Have you put your information on the tracking sheet created by NoSheds and maintained and updated by Thunder?

Zoesman: I believe that Thunder posted instructions recently for contacting him with information for updating the tracking Excel sheet.

zoesman,

try Thunder here:

yudeng2004(at)hotmail(dot)com

I just switched from Flomax to Cialis because the Flomax was causing back pain. It was very confusing because my back went out while gardening and five days later I started on the Flomax. I did not make the connection with Flomax but just assumed that my back was healing very slowly. I went so far as to get an MRI of my back which just showed the usual arthritic changes for a 67-year-old male. In the meantime I was being evaluated by my urologist for a fast rise in my PSA and the unusual back pain was enough to get me to agree to a prostate biopsy.

Because the Flomax was causing back pain my insurance paid for the switch to Cialis. Flomax did work quite well for the obstructive symptoms. Initially Cialis only provided mild, but acceptable, relief. Now, 10 days into treatment, it seems to work as well as the Flomax, without any side-effects! I noticed from day one that I was sleeping better and fell asleep within minutes of going to bed. I still need to get up once per night. My back pain has improved greatly but I still notice some pain where I originally injured it.

I am getting my ISV's sclerosed tomorrow and I am looking forward to it. Luckily, Medicare will cover it… I had been having frequent scrotal tenderness the day after doing heavy yard work but had not until now attributed it to the varicoceles. A Doppler ultrasound did show bilateral varicoceles. I plan to keep a diary after the procedure and I will post the results here. I had hoped to get off the medications but it sounds like most folks still need to take them after the procedure. I am also hoping to get an increase in my testosterone level as a bonus.

More to come.

Just a quick update on my experience with daily cialis.

For a couple of months after my hematuria and surgery to cauterize bleeders on my bladder neck, prostate and urethra, a bladder neck resection, and bladder stone removal, I took generic flomax (tamsulosin) 0.4mg per day. My uro didn't think I needed it but I was pretty paranoid about winding up back in hospital since I was not going to cath any more, so I took it for insurance. Not liking some of the side effects (muscle weakness and stuffy nose) I decided to switch from tamsulosin to the daily 5 mg cialis. I noticed a slight decrease in urine volume, more like a normal flow rather than the gusher that tamsulosin often gave me and improvement in muscle strength and less stuffiness. It was too early to experience more than a slight improvement in sexual function, but it seemed like a win. Initially I experienced headaches and insomnia but that subsided after 4 or 5 days.

But after 2 full weeks on daily 5mg. cialis I decided to stop taking it. The reason I stopped was that over a period of several days I started getting quite short tempered and found myself taking offense easily and even brooding over things I normally would have ignored. I googled mood swing with cialis and found about a half dozen posts by men and/or their wives that noticed negative personality changes after the men started taking the cialis. I don't expect this is the norm (I seem to wind up with just about any possible side effect - which is why I don't take supplements or meds of any kind if I can help it) but apparently it is possible. Another thing I noticed with the short tempered phenomena was that I started waking up a couple of hours before my normal time and was unable to get back to sleep like I normally do.

For the last week and a half I have not taken any meds. I am still urinating normally although a feeling of swelling in my prostate has returned. This feels like I'm sitting on a thin rolled up sock right at the perineum. My urologist did tell me my median lobe was still quite large as he wasn't able to do much with it due to the very large prostate (over 120 g. of which he claimed to have removed 70g. during the greenlight laser surgery almost two years ago). I guess both the cialis and the tamsulosin had made that part of the prostate more flacid and smoother, so I barely noticed it when sitting.

At present, I'm urinating well, every 2 to three hours around the clock, but my mood is good, I sleep well and get right back to sleep when I get up at night or in the morning, my muscle strength is noticeably better, my stuffiness is much improved, and I imagine I'll live with that feeling of slight discomfort when sitting. After my surgery my testosterone and free testosterone are still low (just under the line for low normal) but my PSA stayed at 6.5, which was the first time in about 5 years that it didn't go up between blood tests.

rph guy: Thank you for keeping us up to date with your condition. I wish you the best of luck in seeking relief. I also have mid lobe protrusion. I have recently started a program of using iodine suppositories which I make myself from a mold using a combination of 20 drops of SSKI (potassium iodide), 1 oz (2 tbsp) of organic cocoa butter, melted and 1/2 tsp. 99% DMSO which opens up the tissues for extra absorption. With this concoction and the aluminum suppository mold I bought, I get about 15 suppositories with a concentration of about 20-25 mg of iodine for each suppository. I plan to switch to Lugols solution which has both potassium iodide and iodine. The iodine suppository will also get rid of hemorrhoids. Dr. Jonathan Wright a noted M.D. makes this claim. There is no pain from the iodine with this mixture.

Yes, I guess some of us will go to great lengths to avoid a urologist from doing a ream job. (TURP)

Curezone talks about using iodine for the relief of BPH and to reduce its size.

I found this little gem on using iodine and suppositories from the 1800's. Apparently with great success.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NhI1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=iodine+suppositories+to+treat+benign+prostatic+hypertrophy&source=bl&ots=Dd6knEQqxG&sig=DqgDKspjegK9RzJ4hOQVR5Terw0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nEE8U6v4CZOA2AWkpIDwAg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=iodine%20suppositories%20to%20treat%20benign%20prostatic%20hypertrophy&f=false

Dave: I have been taking 50 mg of Iodoral for the last 6 months. Dr. Flechas said keep taking it for another 5 years. That's how long it takes to actually displace flourine, chlorine and bromine on a cellular level. The scare mongerers in orthodox medicine are totally ignorant when it comes to the importance of this mineral. My TSH levels are perfect. If anything, thyroid function has improved. The medical established aside from poo pooing the positive effects of iodine also disregarded many other nutritional therapies like the Eissaic (?) therapy for treatment of prostate cancer. Just look around at the epidemic of hypothyroidism which can lead to thyroid cancer. The medical profession makes more money selling Synthroid than the simple application of iodine.

Low Progesterone and Testosterone as the cause of BPH. Balancing these hormones in relationship to estradiol would prevent BPH according to author and noted hormone research Dr. John Lee.

http://www.hormonesolutionscenter.com/progesterone-for-men/

Somebody said...
It seems like researchers are in the research business and nothing would get them fired quicker than actually finding a cure. They all get paid as long as the cure is never found.

That's one interpretation, Bob.

I myself am pretty cynical. I suspect that there are a lot of treatments out there that can help relieve symptoms--rather than address the underlying cause--but few treatments that are really effective enough to actually go to market with.

Don't forget that much published research shows a bias toward positive results. Studies that don't find an effect often aren't reported.

Hi Michael,

I don't take Calcium supplements but after my last blood tests I was deficient in Vitamin D and so I recently started taking Chewable Vit D3 supplements. I also
have whole milk with my cereal and half and half with my coffee, and have cheese or yogurt most days, so I am probably getting a bit of extra calcium that way.
It seems that most nights (not all) I have been getting up less often. I wondered if it was the Vitamin D, but based on what you said it might be the Vitamin D in
addition to the Calcium I get from dairy.

This condition of LUTS is so mysterious and unpredictable to me that I've given up trying to do anything specific for it. I eat and drink whatever I want and just try to cope
with it and hopefully stay out of the hospital.

It's been 4 months since my last surgery and so far I am voiding about every 2 to 3 hours with an adequate stream around the clock, which for me is more than acceptable.
The use of the disposable bedside urinal for the past year or so has made it possible to get up at night in the dark and get right back to sleep.

Going every 2 to 3 hours in the day is very manageable for whatever activities I am involved in.

Happily I don't need to self cath any more and if I start to feel a bit restriced I take a flomax for 2 days in a row, which seems to last a week or two. Good luck with your
present regimen. Getting up once a night seems pretty optimal. It often occurs to me that most women get up once or twice a night and they dont have prostates.

Bob

collinstone: Welcome to the site

To answer some of your questions. I would not take finasteride. Too many complications. I believe the bladder can shrink with better voiding. An ultrasound would show thickness of the bladder wall from which you can infer its elasticity. Obviously, the harder the bladder muscle must work, the thicker its gets. I did the GG and after 18 months, I have seen no dicernable difference with the exception of better testosterone levels. I know other people have seen their prostates shrink. In your case, your prostate is not very large and you seem to be retaining much urine. It might be more of a bladder problem than a prostate problem.

For years I have studied the problem of BPH seeking a solution. I believe the Gat Goren procedure and PAE are band-aids. They do not get to the cause of the problem, but can alleviate the symptoms. I believe a varicocelle is a symptom of the disease and not the cause. Still, Gat embolization of the Internal Spermatics and PAE are 10x better than surgery. They do work to decrease the size of the prostate, for most people.

I believe the problem is hormonal. An imbalance of testosterone, estradiol, dht, progesterone along with bad lifestyle choices such as diet, exercise, lack of essential fatty acids and vitamin D, metabolic acidity, etc.
I strongly urge you to read Dr. Lee's Hormone Balance for Men.. http://www.johnleemd.com/

For better bladder functioning you might consider Life Extension's water soluble pumpkin seed extract. An important part of hormone balancing is inhibiting alpha reductase levels to reduce DHT. It is believed that BPH is caused by low bioavailable levels of testosterone, high levels of DHT and Estrogen binding with the hormone receptor sites on the prostate gland. This stimulates cell growth. I take 50 mg of zinc which acts as a reductase inhibitor and also an aromotase inhibitor as well for excess estradiol so common as men age. The prostate gland has a great affinity for zinc and no other organ has as much.
Aside from essential fatty acids, I now take GLA (Gamma Linoleic Acid) which also inhibits 5 alpha reductase, along with a regular prostate formula that has such ingredients as saw palmetto, nettle root, beta sitosterol, lycopene etc. Check out Life Extensions" Ultra Natural Prostate. I also take Iodoral (iodine). Most importantly I have added progesterone to this vitamin therapy, a strong inhibitor of 5 alpha reductase. Knowing the balance of testosterone + progesterone divided by levels of estradiol seems to be the key in preventing prostate growth. Saliva testing according to Dr. Lee is preferable to blood serum testing. Knowing levels of these hormones is essential to getting better. I am still learning!!!

Dave: I never ever considered surgery. Why would I. My latest PSA is 0.6. Once or twice to the bathroom at night is not life threatening. What I have done, is avoided the BPH from getting worse.

Yes, a lot has been said of testosterone and dht but almost nothing about progesterone which has been reserved for women. In men, estrogen gradually rises with age, while saliva levels of progesterone and testosterone gradually fall with age. Thus with aging, estrogen dominance occurs. Fat bellies and breasts for men. So even if testosterone levels are normal, if a man's estradiol levels are high, he can have estrogen dominance symptoms such as prostate enlargement that leads to urinary problems. Thus Dr. Lee postulates that the prostate is very sensitive to hormonal changes that occur around middle age. Men's prostate cancer risk rises when testosterone and progesterone levels have fallen, and estradiol has risen. Young men have high levels of testosterone and progesterone, both of which are our major anabolic energy producing hormones. Estrogen and insulin use up energy. With the fall of testosterone and progesterone, cellular energy wanes.