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Vitamin and Minerals, supplements, and all that jazz

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Posted 6/8/2014 4:02 PM (GMT 0)
Just wanted you to know that I had the doc test Paul's Vitamin D levels and sure enough they were precariously low.... 10 to be exact. Whoa is what I said....

I had read somewhere that low D levels are common in prostate cancer, and also think I read that B 12 is another one that tends to run low... Deficiencies can give you symptoms you may attribute to cancer or depression or a mix of the two so I would suggest you try to learn about this. Its common in the general public these days as well, so its always a good idea to be aware.

Incidentally my D and B12 levels run very low, but due to autoimmune disease and not enough sun (supposed to avoid sun as it causes flares!). I was experiencing some severe symptoms of fatigue, body aches, severe fatigue.... before I was treated and taking supplements helps me in a huge way. I take a boatload- seems I need it with the medications as well as they can also deplete this and calcium too. I take prescription 50,000 Units D2 once a week and 5,000 units D3 OTC supplement twice daily which keeps them right in the middle range of normal. I also to B 12 injections once monthly.

So before you go writing off your symptoms to the cancer, or the treatments ask your doc to humor you and run these tests just to see..... It can't hurt and heck they are already sticking you anyhow and these are cheap tests too- they have no excuses....

What supplements have you been suggested to take with this to avoid deficiency? What supplements are you taking? Which ones do docs suggest and/or monitor?


So far I find the following:

Vitamin D
Vitamin B 12
Calcium

We have Snuffy's book on nutrition thanks to Jack, but haven't opened it yet... Soon... Soon....Its on the to-do list!
I would love a discussion and input....
Posted 6/8/2014 4:37 PM (GMT 0)
The Prostate Cancer Foundation has a great nutrition guide. I have read Myers book and take several of the supplements that he recommends.
Posted 6/8/2014 4:58 PM (GMT 0)
Vitamin D seems to follow a U-shaped curve - too much or too little is bad - you want to stay in the normal range. Oddly, because I live in sun-drenched Southern California, my serum Vitamin D, was low. My doctor suggested a Vitamin D pill. I'll be taking the minimum, and I'll try to get 15 minutes of sun before putting on my sunblock. Vitamin D is fat soluble and stored.

I've never seen anything relating B-12 to PC. I know a lot of vegans/vegetarians who have to supplement.

High calcium intake has repeated been associated with increased PC risk in epidemiological studies, but probably has more to do with genetic determinants of calcium absorption. It's use is especially controversial because of a possible link with cardiovascular events in women taking calcium supplements (but not dietary calcium). The use of Calcium and Vitamin D to prevent bone loss in men on ADT remains controversial as well.

Of course, Vitamin E and especially coupled with Selenium is a big no-no since the SELECT study.

Of course, the way our immune systems fight cancer is using Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS), so use of antioxidants in general may be counterproductive.

Except for the SELECT study, there haven't been any studies that prove that any Vitamins/Minerals have a decided benefit or detriment, and the studies that exist are generally low quality evidence. Some people have problems with absorption or low levels and may need to supplement under advice of their doctors. Because our bodies did not evolve to take Vitamins and Minerals in the surges created by supplements, and the harms may turn out to outweigh the benefits, I generally avoid them and prefer to get my nutrients from foods. I eat a lot of cruciferous vegetables and highly colored fruits and vegetables, and trust that my body, after millions of years of evolution, knows best how to extract what it needs and get rid of the rest.

- Allen
Posted 6/8/2014 5:04 PM (GMT 0)
I have taken a pomegranate capsule a day for more than four years. I also take calcium and vitamin D daily. I used to take more stuff but I have cut back.

ed
Posted 6/8/2014 8:02 PM (GMT 0)
I agree that supplements aren't the best way to get vitamins and minerals but for some like me its the only way to do it without being hugely deficient. Better to have a well balanced diet with plenty of mixed vegetables and fruits and pay attention to proper nutrition in that regard.

There are studies about supplements, and some are much needed as deficiencies can cause rickets and a host of other proven maladies that are largely unheard of here in the first world, but still a great problem in other places in the world.

I have always been in the mindset that one (meaning I, really) should take the least amount of medications to achieve the maximum effectiveness and health. Once you get over three different medications you start to get into the realm of side effects and interactions with your other medications. This goes for supplements too, as there are all kinds of interactions with so many meds.

I am interested in reading the SELECT study but that will have to wait for a minute.

I had never heard that too much Vitamin D can cause issues, I will have to read up on that more. I know that even though I take massive doses my levels are still low normal which again may be because one of my medications is known to deplete Vitamin D and Calcium severely (Deplete may be wrong term, as it may be also preventing absorption, etc).

So much is still unknown about this. For all we know we could be ingesting vitamins that are toxic to humans and not know it yet- much like the mercury cures and lead makeup of past. I sure hope not though.
Posted 6/8/2014 8:08 PM (GMT 0)
And speaking of ROS (reactive oxygen Species) vs antioxidants( warning, you never know where there might be bias, and watch for small studies etc, still, food for thought)

A 12 Week, open Label, Phase I/IIa Study Using Apatone® for the Treatment of Prostate Cancer Patients Who Have Failed Standard Therapy: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2288789/

Serum Markers Variation Consistent with Autoschizis Induced
by Ascorbic Acid–Menadione in Patients with Prostate Cancer www.euro-med.us/dr-lasalvia-publications.pdf (scroll down to PDF page 24 of 97 or type in 24 into the PDF page # or go to page 45 in one of the articles by Lasalvia) or abstract: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12665684

Vitamin K3 and vitamin C alone or in combination induced apoptosis in leukemia cells by a similar oxidative stress signalling mechanism. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21663679

Apoptosis-inducing activity of vitamin C and vitamin K. "Vitamin C shows both reducing and oxidizing activities, depending on the environment in which this vitamin is present. Higher concentrations of vitamin C induce apoptotic cell death in various tumor cell lines including oral squamous cell carcinoma and salivary gland tumor cell lines, possibly via its prooxidant action." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10726979

The vitamin C:vitamin K3 system - enhancers and inhibitors of the anticancer effect. ( studying which anti-oxidants, such as melatonin, inhibit a VitC/VitK3's PC killing abilities via ROS) www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21194250

Oxidative stress by ascorbate/menadione association kills K562 human chronic myelogenous leukaemia cells and inhibits its tumour growth in nude mice. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16828058

Inhibition of the development of metastases by dietary vitamin C:K3 combination: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15193956
Posted 6/8/2014 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
Since my first high PSA test, my PCP doctor has been testing my vitamin D level. It's always been just above the lowest that is considered normal. Last fall, 18 months after I finished RT, the level dropped below normal and they put me on 1000 IUS a day. That did the trick and I am back above.

I don't take any other supplements, instead I just aim for a healthy diet with lots of veggies and low on the red meat.
Posted 6/8/2014 8:36 PM (GMT 0)
kukukajoo,
Supplements will remain highly controversial when dealing with prostate cancer but perhaps less so for folks who have known deficiencies. And that is the best reason to supplement. But that requires a visit with your physician and some blood tests. In those cases getting to recommended blood levels of appropriate through supplements is reasonable but only if dietary changes don't help you get there. You see a lot of adds about supplements and supplement drinks like Ensure, but to do so blindly can be a huge waste of money and likely will be.

The SELECT trial was performed starting in 2002 when many well known physicians were touting selenium and vitamin E as supposed prostate cancer prevention supplements or even as a inclusion to treatment protocols for newly diagnosed prostate cancer patients. The trial was performed by one of the top cancer research Co-ops called the Southwest Oncology Groiup or SWOG under the direction of the National Cancer Institute (NCI). I am an active research member of SWOG and my colleagues in the GU Committee are the trial investigators for SELECT. The primary investigator is Dr. Ian Thompson and a recent update on that trial was released earlier this year. I have started my own site to track posts I make and link them here regularly and here is my post on the SELECT trial:

advancedpcatalk.freeforums.net/thread/113/select-update-swog-2014

You can also go to the SWOG website at www.swog.org for more information on this trial. The significance of this trial is that it proved all claims that hi doses of vitamin E or selenium would have any positive effect of PCa were were wrong. In fact the trial proved that these supplements whether together of separately had more adverse effects with as much as a 25% INCREASE in aggressive prostate cancer with vitamin E supplementation. Selenium had no effect whatsoever. The trial cost over $135m to perform in 35,000+ men. It is estimated that through the years men spent far more than that taking these supplements in the belief that it would prevent this disease.

Good for the supplement makes. Bad for men in regards to PCa risks.
Posted 6/8/2014 9:25 PM (GMT 0)
Woah Tony! Thank you for summarizing that for me. The scary part is that if you pick up a book or do an internet search for supplements for men's prostate health you will definitely hit upon many links touting selenium and Vitamin E as well. Last fall when Paul began to have urinary stream issues we looked it up and that was definitely on more than once list.

One thing I hate- all the misinformation there is out there on the internet that not only laypersons and patients trust but many doctors do as well.

That is a HUGE study btw.
Posted 6/9/2014 4:30 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Kuku,
I am sure rooting for you and Paul. I am so new to this that I hesitate to say too much. I am the one doing the asking. However, on April 1, 2014 my husband was diagnosed with PCa with widespread mets. His urologist was VERY clear that my husband needed to stop taking all the supplements that he has taken for years. He told him not to even take a multivitamin, B vitamins, or vitamin E. My husband has always been religious about taking a multivitamin, fish oil, flax oil, vitamin E, B vitamins, coQ10, milk thistle, and I could go on. I would specifically ask Paul's doctor, and any future doctor, their opinion of this. My husbands PSA went from 2.8 to 790 in a little over two years, part of me wonders if all of the good he was trying to do, didn't hurt him in the end. It is very confusing.
As I said, I am sending positive thoughts to Paul and you.
Deanna
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