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Posted 1/17/2016 4:51 PM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...
Plus, I have read a few studies lately STRONGLY implicating eggs and chicken in PCa. Whether doing some version of Atkins style or not, I sure as heck ate a **** load of eggs and chicken, fried chicken at that, my entire life. And plenty of dairy and sweets(high blood insulin response to that no doubt)

Chicken? Really? Sheesh, I replaced seared steaks and fabulous hamburgers with chicken...

What's these studies you speak of?
Posted 1/18/2016 12:51 AM (GMT 0)
https://news.usc.edu/78953/fasting-and-less-toxic-cancer-drug-could-be-alternative-to-chemotherapy/


"Cancer cells rely heavily on glucose (sugar) from food for energy — they’re on overdrive, burning much more glucose than a regular cell to fuel their rapid growth. The phenomenon is called the Warburg effect, named after the German physician who first described it nearly 100 years ago. As such, cancer cells are much more vulnerable to any interruption in supply.
Deprived of glucose, cancer cells rely on an emergency backup — using a type of enzyme called a kinase to continue their growth-related activities.
Longo and his team and collaborators discovered that this metabolic shift by cancer cells causes them to generate toxic-free radicals, which ultimately kills them. In addition, the kinase pathway for generating energy can be blocked by kinase inhibitors, further choking off cancer cells’ ability to generate energy. Kinase inhibitors are already approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration as a cancer treatment, opening the door to using them and fasting as a one-two punch to knock out cancer."
Posted 1/18/2016 4:48 AM (GMT 0)

Startech said...

BillyBob@388 said...
Plus, I have read a few studies lately STRONGLY implicating eggs and chicken in PCa. Whether doing some version of Atkins style or not, I sure as heck ate a **** load of eggs and chicken, fried chicken at that, my entire life. And plenty of dairy and sweets(high blood insulin response to that no doubt)

Chicken? Really? Sheesh, I replaced seared steaks and fabulous hamburgers with chicken...

What's these studies you speak of?

I know, does it not suck?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132069/

Somebody said...
Abstract

Background: Processed meat and fish have been shown to be associated with the risk of advanced prostate cancer, but few studies have examined diet after prostate cancer diagnosis and risk of its progression.

Objective: We examined the association between postdiagnostic consumption of processed and unprocessed red meat, fish, poultry, and eggs and the risk of prostate cancer recurrence or progression.

Design: We conducted a prospective study in 1294 men with prostate cancer, without recurrence or progression as of 2004–2005, who were participating in the Cancer of the Prostate Strategic Urologic Research Endeavor and who were followed for an average of 2 y.

Results: We observed 127 events (prostate cancer death or metastases, elevated prostate-specific antigen concentration, or secondary treatment) during 2610 person-years. Intakes of processed and unprocessed red meat, fish, total poultry, and skinless poultry were not associated with prostate cancer recurrence or progression. Greater consumption of eggs and poultry with skin was associated with 2-fold increases in risk in a comparison of extreme quantiles: eggs [hazard ratio (HR): 2.02; 95% CI: 1.10, 3.72; P for trend = 0.05] and poultry with skin (HR: 2.26; 95% CI: 1.36, 3.76; P for trend = 0.003). An interaction was observed between prognostic risk at diagnosis and poultry. Men with high prognostic risk and a high poultry intake had a 4-fold increased risk of recurrence or progression compared with men with low/intermediate prognostic risk and a low poultry intake (P for interaction = 0.003).

Conclusions: Our results suggest that the postdiagnostic consumption of processed or unprocessed red meat, fish, or skinless poultry is not associated with prostate cancer recurrence or progression, whereas consumption of eggs and poultry with skin may increase the risk..........................

And if that was not enough of a kick in the balls, at least it showed NO association with red meat even when processed or with SKINLESS chicken. However, look at the little aside at the end, regarding high risk guys like me and any poultry, with or without skin:

Somebody said...
Men with high prognostic risk and a high poultry intake had a 4-fold increased risk of recurrence or progression compared with men with low/intermediate prognostic risk and a low poultry intake

Of course, notice they say "compared with men with low/intermediate prognostic risk and a low poultry intake". So how much of that increased risk was accounted for simply by being high risk compared to low risk?
Posted 1/18/2016 3:46 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks BillyBob, Seems to me high risk guys have a higher risk no matter what they eat or do not eat. This study does go against what I have heard and that red and processed meat along with eggs and dairy should be avoided and chicken was a good substitute. Chicken skin should be avoided anyways. I could not help but notice, they forgot about pork...
Posted 1/19/2016 9:37 AM (GMT 0)

Arne52 said...
Thought we could list studies to what foods fight cancer.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11142088

Pc is not mentioned here but i saw some other research where it was.

"However, the most striking feature was the protection purported by citrus peel consumption (OR = 0.66, 95% CI = 0.45-0.95). Moreover, there was a dose-response relationship between higher citrus peel in the diet and degree of risk lowering. "

Is this what you're looking for? Check it out.

http://cancer.ucsf.edu/_docs/crc/nutrition_prostate.pdf

P.S. Since red meat and chicken consumption has been discussed on this thread, note that the extensive 64-page review of epidemiological studies on PCa done at UCSF concludes that a plant-based diet is the best one for PCa prevention and/or slowing PCa progression in active cases.

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 1/19/2016 4:01:56 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/19/2016 9:42 AM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...
How about flaxseed?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19064574

Somebody said...
RESULTS:

Men were on protocol an average of 30 days. Proliferation rates were significantly lower (P < 0.002) among men assigned to the flaxseed arms. Median Ki-67-positive cells/total nuclei ratios (x100) were 1.66 (flaxseed-supplemented diet) and 1.50 (flaxseed-supplemented, low-fat diet) versus 3.23 (control) and 2.56 (low-fat diet). No differences were observed between arms with regard to side effects, apoptosis, and most serologic endpoints; however, men on low-fat diets experienced significant decreases in serum cholesterol (P = 0.048).
CONCLUSIONS:

Findings suggest that flaxseed is safe and associated with biological alterations that may be protective for prostate cancer. Data also further support low-fat diets to manage serum cholesterol.

I eat flaxseed every day. Usually with yogurt and berries for breakfast, although I am trying to cut back on dairy, so now not every day for breakfast, but...

As I write this, my flaxseed crackers are cooking in the oven. Crackers for non-yogurt/flax days. Made some yesterday, as well. Yummy! lol

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 1/19/2016 2:45:02 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/19/2016 9:50 AM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...
Just had my 1st dose of ground flax seed. I was relieved to find no bad taste. I poured it over a salad with dressing and basically could not tell it was there. I l also ate some straight from the container, no problem. I hope this turns out as good for health as some studies have indicated, because if so it will be a very easy food to add to salads, oat meal, cereal, smoothies or to just eat plain if needed.

Maybe you already know this, but, if not, then here is a flax tip for you:

Buy whole flaxseeds in bulk, and grind them yourself, using a coffee grinder. Only grind as much as you are going to eat. Within minutes of grinding them, they lose a lot of their potency. When you buy the flaxseed already ground, it will not have the same nutritional quality. Or so I am told.
Posted 1/19/2016 10:07 AM (GMT 0)

Gemlin said...
Here is one interesting study:
Prostate cancer and the influence of dietary factors and supplements: a systematic review

www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-11-30.pdf

Summary of current evidence on the relationship between dietary factors and supplements and risk of
prostate cancer:

1. Well-done meat is associated with increased risk of prostate cancer; consumption of red meat should be limited to <500 g per week.
2. High fat intake (mainly saturated fatty acids and linoleic acid) appears related to increased risk of prostate cancer.
3. Milk intake appears to be associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and its intake should be minimized.
4. Tomatoes and tomato-based products may be preventive in early prostate cancer.
5. Cruciferous vegetables may be beneficial but they currently cannot be advocated for prostate cancer prevention due to the paucity of
randomized trials.
6. Pomegranate may have a role in both prevention and delaying progression of prostate cancer, but available data are often conflicting.
7. Soy-containing products may be chemopreventive in prostate cancer but further studies are warranted to clarify their impact on PSA, testosterone,
and sex-hormone binding globulin levels in men with, or at risk of, prostate cancer.
8. Green tea appears a chemopreventive agent in prostate cancer, but there is inconclusive benefit in patients already with prostate cancer.
9. Selenium supplementation is not recommended in chemoprevention of prostate cancer and very high levels may indeed be pro-carcinogenic.
10. Vitamin A is not recommended as part of chemopreventive diet to prevent prostate cancer.
11. Supplementation with vitamin D is not advocated unless the patient is vitamin D deficient. High levels of vitamin D may be associated with a
worse prognosis.
12. There is no evidence regarding benefits of pre- or probiotics in prostate cancer

Interesting stuff. Especially about red meat. I was trying to go vegan (except for my yogurt breakfast, lol). But I've been doing heavy labor for the past 4 months, and after I started, felt too weak, so decided to go Paleo, and added meat to my diet. After a week, I got kidney stones (probably from eating too many nuts for protein), was super stressful, and PSA took a big jump. Cutting back on nuts was also a factor in my decision to eat meat.

Started with 3 oz of lamb steak 6 days a week, which is almost exactly 500g. Two consecutive months had nice declines in PSA. Most recent test, however, showed an alarming spike up. What did I do wrong? Well, my meat consumption had climbed to 5.5 oz per day, and my cheese consumption had gone up a good deal, as well. And, though I had not consciously realized it in real time, upon reflection, I could see that as my meat/cheese consumption went up, my veggie consumption went down.

Meat and cheese are very high in protein. We all need protein, but it does stimulate IGF-1 production and that is not a good thing. I tend to go to extremes , so consequently, I have to be careful to get enough protein, but not too much. Not easy for me to do things in moderation, but I am trying.

Have cut back on the meat to approx. 3 oz per day, and only eating a tiny bit of feta on my salads and some romano on my eggplant romano and Mexican squash romano, two of my favorite dishes! (but not piling it on, as before).

BTW, I gained 10 lbs over the last 4 months, but have probably most of it in the 2 weeks since I modified my diet again. Because my diet is somewhat extreme, it is way too easy to lose weight, and very hard to gain it back.

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 1/19/2016 3:16:01 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/19/2016 10:25 AM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...

Gemlin said...
Here is one interesting study:
Prostate cancer and the influence of dietary factors and supplements: a systematic review

www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-11-30.pdf

Summary of current evidence on the relationship between dietary factors and supplements and risk of
prostate cancer:

1. Well-done meat is associated with increased risk of prostate cancer; consumption of red meat should be limited to <500 g per week.
2. High fat intake (mainly saturated fatty acids and linoleic acid) appears related to increased risk of prostate cancer.
3. Milk intake appears to be associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and its intake should be minimized.
4. Tomatoes and tomato-based products may be preventive in early prostate cancer.
5. Cruciferous vegetables may be beneficial but they currently cannot be advocated for prostate cancer prevention due to the paucity of
randomized trials.
6. Pomegranate may have a role in both prevention and delaying progression of prostate cancer, but available data are often conflicting.
7. Soy-containing products may be chemopreventive in prostate cancer but further studies are warranted to clarify their impact on PSA, testosterone,
and sex-hormone binding globulin levels in men with, or at risk of, prostate cancer.
8. Green tea appears a chemopreventive agent in prostate cancer, but there is inconclusive benefit in patients already with prostate cancer.
9. Selenium supplementation is not recommended in chemoprevention of prostate cancer and very high levels may indeed be pro-carcinogenic.
10. Vitamin A is not recommended as part of chemopreventive diet to prevent prostate cancer.
11. Supplementation with vitamin D is not advocated unless the patient is vitamin D deficient. High levels of vitamin D may be associated with a
worse prognosis.
12. There is no evidence regarding benefits of pre- or probiotics in prostate cancer

Probably a pretty good summary at least of the thoughts of many folks, but I personally believe we just don't really know much about any of that. For example, look at #1 on the list re: well cooked meat above all, and red meat also. Then, going into the report itself, I see:

Somebody said...
Many large cohort studies of meat intake have taken place worldwide in the last 20 years with conflicting results. A meta-analysis by Alexanderet al. looked at pro-spective studies examining the association between red or processed meat and prostate cancer. Fifteen studies on red meat and 11 on processed meat were included but no association between them and prostate cancer
was found [11]. A previous meta-analysis published in 2009 on well-cooked meat and all cancer risk, looked at four studies that examined HCA intake and prostate
cancer and concluded there was a positive association with prostate cancer [6".

So, 26 studies show NO association and 4 studies show a positive association, but the verdict is: "1. Well-done meat is associated with increased risk of prostate cancer; consumption of red meat should be limited to <500 g per week."? Certainly seems debatable to me.

Then there is this:

Somebody said...
The European Prospective Investigation into Cancer
and Nutrition (EPIC)-Heidelberg cohort included a total
of 11,928 men aged 40–65 years and 13,612 women aged 35-65 years who were recruited between 1994 and 1998 from Heidelberg and its surrounding communities. Information on diet, lifestyle, and health was obtained at baseline by means of questionnaires and face-to-face
interviews. 337 incident cases of prostate cancer (123 advanced cases) were identified among 9,578 men with valid dietary information. Surprisingly there was no association between HCA intake and advanced prostate cancer or between high consumption of strongly browned meat

Notice they were surprised? The authors of a big Harvard study said the same thing when they ONLY found an association between chicken and eggs but ZERO association with red meat, even when processed. That is because it is certainly the well accepted/conventional wisdom that meat is the evil, and especially red or processed red meat, but the evidence seems to still be lacking. Which is why they are surprised. But it does not keep them from making point #1 to avoid well done and red meat. Don't get me wrong. They may well be right. In fact I have strongly been leaning towards a change to no or low meat. But just like saturated fat, fat in general and the amount of carbs we should eat, the evidence seems- at the most- conflicting. To me it still seems really hard to know. If I continue towards vegetarianism, it will be because I have decided to do a study of 1, just as I did some years ago with low carb approaches, and see what happens.

Forgot to mention, my consumption of eggs went up a lot in the month when my PSA spiked up. I figured too much protein, in general, but many studies seem to agree that eggs are not good for PCa, so there's that, too, plus an increase in chicken consumption, though still not a lot of chicken.

However, last week I bought a chicken, cooked it, and had chicken for 4 or 5 consecutive days. I definitely noticed a subtle, but clearly noticeable, increase in symptoms after each time I ate the chicken. Coincidence? I don't know, but don't think I'll be eating too much chicken going forward. At least not for now.
Posted 1/19/2016 10:38 AM (GMT 0)

richh said...

JackH said...
I recommend the book "Anticancer — A new way of life" by Dr. David Servan-Schreiber as an outstanding source to discover how to adopt an anticancer lifestyle, including understanding foods that fight and feed cancer.

I agree. Fantastic book, even for people who don't have cancer.

His diet may or may not be optimal, but his philosophy is right on.

The main thing is to push your fasting blood glucose (fbg) as low as you can safely get it. Cancer needs glucose to grow.

And there you have it. Lowering blood glucose is at the heart of my diet. This means low, low carbs (basically you have to cut out all grains, which are way too high carb), and very moderate protein, because when your body is deprived of carbs, it's first adaptive response to that is to convert protein into glucose, via a process, which happens primarily in your liver, called gluconeogenisis. Too much protein can defeat a low carb diet. The typical American's diet is not only way too high in carbs, but also way too high in protein, relative to what a body actually needs.

I know a lot of you are thinking, "this guy is nutty!" And you are probably right about that. But, if you are curious, about the basis of my dietary approach, then here is an explanation of it from Dr. Thomas Seyfried, who I consider to be possibly the leading researcher in science that translates to a low-carb, moderate protein, high-fat diet. Here's a link to a very interesting video in which he explains how it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL7YKya_R1ROsVwgUXAPbTwhvdrhGg9NCd&v=sBjnWfT8HbQ
Posted 1/19/2016 10:45 AM (GMT 0)

Arne52 said...
https://news.usc.edu/78953/fasting-and-less-toxic-cancer-drug-could-be-alternative-to-chemotherapy/


"Cancer cells rely heavily on glucose (sugar) from food for energy — they’re on overdrive, burning much more glucose than a regular cell to fuel their rapid growth. The phenomenon is called the Warburg effect, named after the German physician who first described it nearly 100 years ago. As such, cancer cells are much more vulnerable to any interruption in supply.
Deprived of glucose, cancer cells rely on an emergency backup — using a type of enzyme called a kinase to continue their growth-related activities.
Longo and his team and collaborators discovered that this metabolic shift by cancer cells causes them to generate toxic-free radicals, which ultimately kills them. In addition, the kinase pathway for generating energy can be blocked by kinase inhibitors, further choking off cancer cells’ ability to generate energy. Kinase inhibitors are already approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration as a cancer treatment, opening the door to using them and fasting as a one-two punch to knock out cancer."

Wow! That is some awesome info about the kinase metabolic shift. I definitely need to do my homework on that! Thanks, Arne.
Posted 1/19/2016 10:55 AM (GMT 0)

halbert said...
This rolls back to the one basic idea:

Eating a healthy, balanced diet (and note that the carb-heavy US dietary recommendations are NOT balanced) is always a good choice. The pathway to middle-aged cancer is probably set early in life by genetics, diet, and environment, and there is unlikely to be much we can do about it once we reach middle age.

Sometimes I think all our digging for diets, supplements, etc are really a form of denial. That if I just did (or had done earlier) enough of the right things, then I won't get cancer. Personally, I think cancer is wired into our genes and our immune systems. Some people just seem to have a 'better' cellular replication system than others, that makes fewer errors.

Yes, that makes sense, genes are likely the reason some men get cancer, some don't, and for which cancer they get, all other things, such as diet and exposure to toxins being more or less equal.

And, yes, you might very well say I am in denial, as I am very intensely into a dietary approach to treatment. And you may be right about that, as well.

But I can't deny my PSA results. I've been getting tested monthly for the past 21 months. When the carbs go up, the scores go up. When I've increased protein consumption, the score goes up. Which makes it a b*tch keeping weight on. But I would rather be alive and skinny, than fat and dead. lol
Posted 1/19/2016 11:50 AM (GMT 0)
jaybee, you may be right about PSA. We also know that PSA is a lousy indicator of cancer growth. My PSA at diagnosis was only 3.3, and I was taking a supplement with saw palmetto. And then I was told that saw palmetto lowers PSA--and helps BPH--but it has no effect on cancer.

Just a word of caution.
Posted 1/19/2016 9:47 PM (GMT 0)

halbert said...
jaybee, you may be right about PSA. We also know that PSA is a lousy indicator of cancer growth. My PSA at diagnosis was only 3.3, and I was taking a supplement with saw palmetto. And then I was told that saw palmetto lowers PSA--and helps BPH--but it has no effect on cancer.

Just a word of caution.

Hi Halbert,

Read your story, and I admire what you are doing there. But we are kind of opposites. I am not a participant in social media, except for infrequently on this forum, and frequently on one other forum. I am not sure if it is that I am old school, or just plain crazy, but I just accept myself for who I am, whatever that is. Outside of my doctors and this forum, there is only one other person, who even knows about my condition, and he is a virtual friend, whom I have never met, although I hope to some day, but he doesn't live in the US, and I am not up for traveling at the moment.

BTW, I have 2 grown kids, but am not married. So I guess we couldn't be much more different, except we are both fathers and have PCa. Oh, and my Dad died of spinal cancer at age 87, as did an uncle(79). But since, presumably, it is really PCa, I don't understand why they call it spinal cancer.

I am more of a lurker, than a poster. I come here to get info on the latest developments in cancer research, mainly. I am not sure if that fully explains why I am not forthcoming with details of my medical crisis, but I do admire you guys who have the courage to step out that way. I will say this much: when I referred to my PSA rising and falling, I am not talking in increments of a few points.

However, because I am pretty obsessed with diet, I saw this thread and could not resist chiming in. lol

Best of luck with your upcoming surgery! :-)

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 1/19/2016 2:51:30 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/19/2016 9:57 PM (GMT 0)
Just had a big salad for breakfast, with loads of olive oil (good fat!), and some liberal squeezes from a fresh lemon. With it, I had some flax crackers that I made last night, Flackers I call 'em. lol And a cup of almond milk.

Dodging the dairy today! lol But did have 1/3 of an ounce of sheep feta on the salad. It was so good, feels like I caught a little buzz from it. :)
Posted 1/19/2016 10:06 PM (GMT 0)
jaybee, thanks, but I'm coming up on a year since surgery...it was LAST Feburary 17. Best of luck on your journey....
Posted 1/20/2016 2:26 AM (GMT 0)

halbert said...
jaybee, thanks, but I'm coming up on a year since surgery...it was LAST Feburary 17. Best of luck on your journey....

Oops, my bad! Read the first page of your story, thought that was the end, not noticing that the dates I was seeing were '15, not '16. I'm caught up on it now!

So, let me just say Congrats on your very successful journey, and thanks for the best wishes. You, sir, are a credit it your family and to the group of PCa comrades here on this forum!

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 1/19/2016 7:40:17 PM (GMT-7)

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