HW/PC Book Club Feb-2017: “Being Mortal”

Welcome to redheadskier, and welcome to bluebird123! Glad to have you join…I see that you both have recently been infrequent posters, but we will look forward your contributions to the online book discussions during early-February (be sure to come back then!). Also thanks, 81GyGuy, for letting us know you are still involved and will pick-up the book next week (still 2-weeks before discussion starts). Infohound2 is the only one we haven’t heard a re-confirmation from. It appears she may be only infrequently online at HW/PC…only one post in January (this thread), one in December, and only one in November. No problem; I think we’ve got a good critical mass (9 or 10 readers/participants) for the discussions.

By the way, on 1/3/17, I reached out on the HW/Breast Cancer forum and extended an invitation to that site’s members to join the HW/PC Book Club. No takers, and in fact it looks a little quiet over there.

This will probably be the last time I’ll post this invitation in January, but it’s still not too late to join the Jan-Feb Book Club cycle.

If you do run across this thread too late to join the Jan-Feb cycle, think about joining as a participant in the next cycle. The Jan-Feb readers/participants will be selecting a new book in late-February for reading in March and discussion in April...and once you participate in one complete cycle you can also participate in the selection of the next book for the following cycle. See the first post in this thread for more info…

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note to all participants/readers:
I’ve placed a “check” (checkmark) by the names of our readers who have confirmed back via reply post that you have actually obtained the book and have started reading. Infohound2, if you see this, please let us know—one way or the other—via a posted reply if you have secured the book and have started reading…simply to confirm your continued, intended participation. Thanks!

HW/PC Book Club Participant List, so far, for the Jan-Feb reading/discussion of Being Mortal (these are the clear "yes" replies I have ascertained, with a "check" to confirm obtaining the book & continued participation):

• JackH -- check
  
• chris1960 -- check
  
• halbert -- check
  
• DYank -- check
  
• 81GyGuy -- check
  
• Robertmp -- check
  
• Tim G -- check
  
• Infohound2 -- ??
  
• compiler -- check
  
• redheadskier -- check
  
• bluebird123 -- check
  
  (it’s too early to be thinking about this now, but this group of names should also be thinking in the back of their heads about what book to recommend for the Mar-Apr cycle…let's please hold-off on that part of the discussion for now, but I’ll bring the topic up again in mid-February and the Jan-Feb participants can make a selection on a book for the next round before March begins)

Also, readers, please continue to keep in mind my “ask” of you to underline, or make note, of any interesting/profound/wise quotes by the author in the course of the book. I’ve found several to share (particularly in the 2nd half of the book). Please make note of where each quote is in the book, and we will discuss in February.

And finally, don’t worry if this thread fades over the next few weeks, I'll resurrect it in February. Good reading!

Post Edited (JackH) : 1/13/2017 8:42:59 AM (GMT-7)

Hey sorry to bring up the rear, but I'm still in! I've got the book, and I'll be better about checking in regularly during our discussion month

I appreciated the little tangent about the memory loss -- it's added a second book to my shelf! We went through something similar about 10 years ago. My husband hit his head and lost about 20 years of memory. It came back over time, almost a full recovery, but was quite an interesting ride during the phase where I was continually reminding him of the fact that he has kids (there were these small people living in our house who would hug him, and he'd look a little confused and say "hey....guy!" in a way that sounded friendly but you could tell he hoped it might encourage this small affectionate stranger to let go). Teaching him to drive again was also fun. His jeep may as well have been an spaceship come back from the future -- satellite radio, heck even cell phones, he could not get over all the crazy equipment).

Don't worry, I'll stay on topic when the Being Mortal discussion begins!

halbert said...
Well, I finished the book in about 3 evenings. Now I need to read it again and take notes. I haven't read a book and taken notes for a LONG time. I've got a couple of long plane rides next week....

Oh my goodness...overachiever alert! You might be better prepared for the discussions next month than I am!

Post Edited (JackH) : 1/19/2017 1:16:28 PM (GMT-7)

I have just joined this forum. Is it too late to join the book club? I have started to read the book already and am really enjoying it. Thanks

HW/PC Book Club DISCUSSION starts February 1st (tomorrow)

Welcome to HW/PC’s Feb-17 Book Club online discussion. This month (starting tomorrow) we are discussing Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. Book Club participants are:

• JackH
  
• chris1960
  
• halbert
  
• DYank
  
• 81GyGuy
  
• Robertmp
  
• Tim G
  
• Infohound2
  
• compiler
  
• redheadskier
  
• bluebird123
  
• Billc

Everyone has already read how the Book Club works, so we don’t need to re-post the GUIDELINES which were given in the very first posting of this thread—although we may refer back to that post, if & when needed.

However, if you have just joined HW/PC (or are a long-time member) and want to join the Book Club in the future, please be aware that we are currently in the middle of the (first) two-month read/discuss cycle. You are absolutely welcome to join the next cycle, and here’s details on how you can participate next time (which starts soon):

• The two-month long Book Club cycle consists of two parts, each a month long; more specifically:

• FIRST MONTH (Reading Month) is (1) promotion of the newly selected book to encourage HW/PC site member participation, (2) “sign-up” by site members to indicate that you want to get the book, read it and participate in group online discussion, and (3) reading the book. The earlier in the month that you “sign-up” as a participant, the more time you have to read the book before discussion starts.

• SECOND MONTH (Discussion Month) is where “signed-up” members discuss the book (in this thread). I’m filling the role of “facilitator” for the first book, and I will be posting some (hopefully) thought-provoking questions in this thread for “signed-up” participants who have read the book to comment on. Hopefully some of our “signed-up” participants may also be raising points/questions for the group’s discussion. I will be spreading my discussion questions out a day or more apart to allow time for thoughtful responses. ALSO, starting around the middle of the month, this cycle’s “signed-up” participants will participate in a process to select the next cycle’s book selection.

• We are now in the 2nd month of our first cycle – we are in the middle of the cycle – so the time for newcomers to join is at the beginning of the next cycle, which will be March 1st.

• If we continue this cycle pattern onward, our future Book Club two-month cycles will be:
………………………Reading……………Discussion............Book
……………………….Jan-17………………..Feb-17..........Being Mortal
……………………….Mar-17……………….Apr-17
……………………….May-17……………….Jun-17
……………………….Jul-17…………………Aug-17
…and so on…as long as there is a critical mass of interest/participation.

Discussion starts tomorrow!

Lastly, I would just like to remind you that discussion of suicide or assisted suicide are not permitted on HealingWell.com. Period.

Post Edited (JackH) : 2/2/2017 4:33:05 PM (GMT-7)

Quick question - do we respond in this thread, or is there another thread for the discussion?

Did you find the book worthwhile? Are you glad you read it? Do you think my comment that some topics were "a bit difficult" was accurate? In our society, we generally consider discussions of mortality to be “depressing.” How do you feel about that generality? Has reading Being Mortal changed those feelings for you? In what ways? What might you do differently in light of your reading this book?

Comments?

To respond Seriatim....

Yes, I found the book worthwhile. It said a number of things that I have thought about over the years, and I have experienced at some level throughout my adult life. Both of my paternal grandparents lived for a number of years in a nursing home, and died there. My grandfather was a long term diabetic (adult onset) who had a number of strokes as he aged, and spent the last year or two in essentially a near-vegetative state. My grandmother started down the long road of alzheimers at a fairly young age...in her 50's or so...and spent at least the last 5 years of her life in a nursing home.

So, yes, I've seen that side of it. I've also seen and experienced what good hospice care is all about, when my father was dying of spinal metastisis.

This is an important book, that probably needs more coverage than it gets. We, in this country, have spent a great many years hiding from mortality, and sanitizing it, and pretending it's not real. Or something. I'm going to come close to veering into forbidden territory with this comment: it's too bad that the real need for the important conversations he encourages has in the past been turned into political screaming using language about "pulling the plug on grandma" and so on.

The reality is that we DO need to face these issues, each of us as individuals AND as a society as a whole. We DO need to seriously think about the cost of business as usual, both the financial costs and the human costs.

Howdy folks. Starting my snowbird thing here in Ca., so I've been traveling all day. I'll try and be brief. I finished the book about 10 days ago and I no longer have it (got it online via my local library).

I enjoyed the book. But, from my vantage point, he was preaching to the choir.
Over the last 15 years, I have made a couple of important financial decisions.

1) I dropped all life insurance and replaced it with LTC insurance. Part of my analysis was: what financial threats do I have? The answer was clear: I could end up in assisted living or some other nursing home and get ruined financially if I end up hanging on for a decade.

2) In 2016, we re-did completely our wills, financial power of attorneys, and advanced directives. Once again, we had to come to grips with some very unpleasant but not unlikely possible future situations. So, it entailed discussions of what we want and don't want.

The author deals with those topics extensively and, as I said, for me he was preaching to the choir.

Incidentally, I can't really say that I learned a lot -- but I agreed with a lot.

One aspect that was fascinating was his chilling description of the old "poor-house." WOW! I had no idea these places were so horrendous.

Okay, enough for now. JET LAG!

Mel

Did you find the book worthwhile? Are you glad you read it? Do you think my comment that some topics were "a bit difficult" was accurate? In our society, we generally consider discussions of mortality to be “depressing.” How do you feel about that generality? Has reading Being Mortal changed those feelings for you? In what ways? What might you do differently in light of your reading this book?

I thought the book was very well written--informative, but not morbid. Our society has definitely changed from dying being part of life to trying to sanitize death and add distance from it. Both of my parents used Hospice (one had Alzheimer's and one had cancer) and our experiences were positive.
While we have had conversations about what we both want as we face death, the author adds some specific questions that might help clarify things more.

Our Advanced Directives is on file at:

Our House
Our safety deposit box
(I also sent the relevent parts to our children)

It is also on file at our major local hospital and our physician's office.

I have known our physician for almost 40 years. He was one of my best students (Honors Calculus Class).

But I also suspect that he is quite conservative, politically.
Our only conversation has been to the effect that my Directives are on file in his office.

I think I really need to ask him if he would be comfortable enough in refusing certain types of txs. under certain types of circumstances.

It seems whenever I see him I have some important health issues and they take up the time and priority.

You read the book and I think an underpinning is that you better do all you can to make sure you are "covered."

In fact, I am going to ask my wife to read the book. It would be helpful if Caregivers read the book as they could be the one making crucial decisions.

It is interesting that you can have wonderful nursing homes, on paper, that somehow fail to meet the needs of the patient. I guess it is like the excellent doctor who is great at educating his patients in the sense of imparting information, but actually lacks (or doesn't use) some communication skills that could under certain circumstances be more important!!

Mel

So I'm a little behind, but will catch up now:

Did you find the book worthwhile? Are you glad you read it? Do you think my comment that some topics were "a bit difficult" was accurate? In our society, we generally consider discussions of mortality to be “depressing.” How do you feel about that generality? Has reading Being Mortal changed those feelings for you? In what ways? What might you do differently in light of your reading this book?

I absolutely am finding it worthwhile. I agree parts of it are difficult, but it also has inspirational aspects, and I like his writing style. Some tough material, but an easy, fast-moving read.

It may be that it isn't as depressing for me as it may be for some others, because I'm thinking about mortality often anyhow. My husband is currently in hospice at home, so I'm his caregiver. My mom died of cancer about 11 years ago; I was holding her hand when she died. So I've been very involved in the battles of two people fighting advanced cancer, and it is striking how much has changed. My husband was much luckier than my mom -- that decade made a difference and he has had so many more and better treatment options. But he's also been unluckier. She didn't suffer nearly as much as he has, and his suffering meter is still running. So his statements about this prolonged process definitely ring true.

On a more actionable front, the book's also given me new ideas for ways to make this long slow process better for my husband. I think I'll stop short of moving 100 birds into my house, but some of the other things he writes about could be helpful.

It's also reminded me that I have a dad, and conversations we have today could make things much better in the not-too-distant future. I've really shorted him as my responsibilities at home became so all-consuming. And it's been easy to do it. He's 85, but seems so much younger than my husband, I tend to wave away any idea that he needs help. In relative terms, he's almost disturbingly healthy, so it's as if I've been pretending he isn't facing his own difficult days in the near-ish future.

Finally, it's made me feel less alone, or maybe less cursed would be more accurate. It's easy for me to feel sorry for myself -- I worry about him, I worry about our kids, I worry about our bills, ... it's just been stressful. But this book is a reminder that this stuff is universal. No one makes it through unscathed, and none of us are going to make it out alive.



Hmmm, that's a pretty dark sentence to end on, so I'll recap by saying that even though it sounds dark, I found the book illuminating.

To the issue of doctors and their training, I'd suggest a slightly different perspective:

I find it fascinating that this book was written by a surgeon. As we all know, surgeons as a group tend to be some of the most aloof and impersonal groups of professionals out there. That Dr. Gawande has made the mental/emotional leap that he has is significant. I think part of the problem, and he hints at it, is that medical training is focused on fixing problems. And, Death is the biggest "problem" of all, and to take these highly skilled, highly trained, professionally detached people and tell them that they can't "fix" this "problem" makes their collective heads explode.

I do think it's fantastic that hospice is becoming very much mainstream, and that programs are showing up all over, even in small town and rural areas where the resources are severely limited. People "get it". And the medical leaders in many of these programs are PCP's in collaboration with the oncology groups.

On the issue of sanitizing and hiding death, I hearken back to a book I read many years ago called, "The American Way of Death", that brought up many of these same issues. Even the simple thing of moving the body to a funeral home and having the wake there is a way of hiding the truth. Personally, I think the tradition of the "Irish Wake", where after the interment, the family and friends gather for a celebration is a tremendous idea. In my religious tradition, the memorial service is properly titled "a service in witness to the resurrection" and is meant to be a celebration of the life of the deceased.

I have read extensively on this subject and am developing clear ideas about what I want for myself, which I will not go into here, not this early in the morning. I do leave with the thought that we have, as a society, lost a great deal in this area. Back in the day, a body was laid out on the dining table at home, the neighbors and family gathered. The men of the town dug the grave, and the whole thing was over in a day. And life went on. "In the midst of life, we are all in death" says the Book of Common Prayer. An interesting way to put it, isn't it?