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Posted 7/5/2017 5:35 PM (GMT 0)
Diane,

Looks like you already got some excellent responses while
I was answering your "chicken" and "fish" question on the Diet
and Exercise thread.

Cashless

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=3515667&p=5
Posted 7/5/2017 8:52 PM (GMT 0)
The good news from both of those studies- one of which found both chicken and eggs to be evil and the 2nd one which found eggs to be not terribly evil and chicken to actually be protective- is that both of them found you could eat plenty of red meat if you wanted to. ( I know- but that's what the results say, no problem with red meat, and very little problem if any with even processed red meat. Just look at the tables. Scroll down to fatal PC under the unprocessed red meat segment and look at all levels higher than lowest(control). Then check out chicken. This was published in the International Journal of Cancer May 2016. Oddly, I see several authors also from Harvard. I think all were from Harvard in the earlier study(about 2011) that showed either chicken or eggs could rise your risk by around 4 times.
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837898/table/T3/

Another thing of interest in that study is that risk generally(not always) ran higher when looking at consumers of the same amounts of these foods in North America.
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837898/table/T4/

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/5/2017 3:00:55 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/5/2017 10:03 PM (GMT 0)
This has been so informative for me. Thank you so much too Prato for starting this thread and to everyone that contributed. I will have to read through all this information and figure out what to do. somehow I'll have to find a happy medium between what he's willing to eat and what's best for him. One thing that's for sure is I really missed the mark on the chicken. I had no idea so thanks again everyone!
Posted 7/6/2017 1:24 AM (GMT 0)
J&D, I'm glad the thread was helpful to you.
I'm more confused than ever, LOL 😂😥.
I too need to review the thread, the studies, and everything I'm doing.

I did just finish reading Robb Wolfs critique of the movie, referred to by Tudpock, and Wolf did a good job of debunking a lot of it. I did not realize that everyone involved in the film were vegans and the producer was a known animal rights activist, with an agenda other than human health.

The only one thing that I'm pretty convinced of is that Big Food Inc, is a criminal organization, and the ACS, AHA, and ADA are accomplices in their crimes. Ok, I'm exaggerating to make a point. But it's a valid point.
Posted 7/6/2017 1:29 AM (GMT 0)

Tim G said...
I've been interested in the possibilities of probiotics since taking them a few years ago while on an antibiotic. But so far have not been convinced of any positive benefit, except when on antibiotics.

Jack & Diane said...
Tim,

about 4 years ago my husband somehow got a terrible case of cdiff that landed him in the hospital in isolation for a week. A big part of his treatment was probiotics and he's been taking them ever since. He says they make a big difference on how he feels. He has no more bloating and VERY rarely has gas (I hope this is not too detailed but I can tell you on the rare occasion he does have gas it does not smell for some reason) one of the biggest changes for him is he is regular almost to the hour. They've made a pretty big difference for the better for him.

I can't remember how long ago it was that I first got into Probiotics, but the most obvious

benefit which was quickly noticed was exactly what you said about the gas and it's smell. I can't help but think, or at least hope, that is a good thing. It seems good!

Also, when I finally gave up on mouthwash and went instead with the opposite approach, oral probiotics(oral as in dissolve in mouth). My wife serves as the monitor, and I seem to have vastly fewer issues in the bad breath department. It has been many, many months since I have used any mouthwash, and it appears I actually do much better without trying to kill whatever germs(good or bad) might be in my mouth.

Recently read a book titled "The Microbiome Solution" by Robynne Chutkan, MD (Gastroenterologist) One thing I picked up from that and other sources is that at least as important as the probiotics is what you feed the probiotics so that they can easily multiply thus hopefully displacing the bad bugs, as in your husbands battle with C Diff. And/Or, of course, (hopefully)boosting the immune system as per the OP. And various high fiber and fermented foods seem to be the key to this. It is easy to see that the quantity taken in with the food for the probiotics could be really helpful in feeding the good bugs so they can rapidly reproduce once they have been consumed. Who knows, one day we might find out for sure all of this is helpful for something other than better breath and a a less stinky bathroom! Not that both of those are not worthwhile! yeah

EDIT: observation has convince me that they(even if just via yogurt) are most assuredly helpful in battling some of the SEs of antibiotics. But how many of our doctors have told us, when prescribing antibiotics, about probiotics? Show of hands? I have never been told that, and have numerous friends and relatives who would say the same. Our grandson just got a round of ABs for strep throat and, as usual, no mention of probiotics.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/5/2017 7:39:53 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/6/2017 1:39 AM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...

Jack & Diane said...

Nick2017 said...
Answer: Watch "What The Health", a new documentary on Netflix. Deals a lot with the immune system.

I am a life long red meat eater and unfortunately lots of deadly deli meats. Since watching it I have been a Vegan for two days! Definitely check it out!

Nick

Wow! I'm watching this now and it is shocking! I knew we needed to change his diet to avoid red meat and dairy but I had no idea chicken/poultry was so dangerous as far as PCa.

They just said eating poultry increases the risk of recurrance by 4 times.

Here's the part of the movie I just heard. Is this true? What can he eat? Is fish ok or does it have to be just plant based?


MEN WITH A HIGH PROGNOSTIC RISK AND A HIGH POULTRY INTAKE HAD A 4-FOLD INCREASED RISK OF RECURRENCE OR PROGRESSION

Richman, Erin L, et al "Intakes of meat, fish, poultry and eggs andrisk of prostate cancer progression". The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 2010 Mar; 91(3): 712-721

Well, the problem, as almost always is, wait a while to get a study you like. That study you mentioned out of Harvard was a bit of bad news for a big chicken and egg eater like me, and I really cut back for a long while on both. But I personally like this one a little better ( smilewinkgrin ) as it does lowers the egg risk to something a lot less scary and actually shows chicken consumption to be- sit down for this- protective. I suggest scrolling down through the charts and look at the actual % increase in risk for various categories.
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837898/


Billybob, thanks for posting that study. One of the things I learned from reading Robb Wolf's review of the movie on Netflix, was the propensity for using questionnaires together data for these dietary studies. According to Wolf, these questionnaires Are notoriously inaccurate which would seem to limit the value of studies using them. Just my thought , but it does make sense. Think about how accurate you could be filling out a questionnaire where you were commenting on long term eating habits and how many grams per day of leave eggs and chicken you're taking in. Unfortunately it seems like the studies are all we've got to go on
Posted 7/6/2017 1:43 AM (GMT 0)
Yes, Prato, I can see where actually finding out how much chicken a person ate could really be a problem. So we will have to wait for the RCT where the control group gets no chicken ( or eggs or steak whatever you want to test) and the other group gets 3 servings of KFC per day, with all strictly controlled. I'm certain that study will be along momentarily! smilewinkgrin turn

I will say(have said) that, due to low carbing it to lose some gut, have had far more eggs and chicken during the last 3 months than I have in the last 3 years, and it did not spike my PSA, FWIW. But it has also only been 3 months, so I am still a bit uneasy about that. But low carb is the only thing that ever works for me, and I still wouldlike to take off about another 10 lbs. And after all, weight has it's own health implications.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/5/2017 7:48:37 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/6/2017 1:46 AM (GMT 0)

JNF said...
PCa medical oncologist Snuffy Myers reported nearly 30 years ago about the link between eggs and chicken fat and increased risk of PCa. He found that the fatty acid, arachidonic acid, converts to the hormone 5-HETE that his research showed fosters the growth of PCa.

So the egg and chicken and land animal fat connection is nothing new.

Meyers spent 30 years in oncology and diet research with NIH, NCI and the University of Virginia Cancer Center. When at UVA the center was a leading PCa research center. He focused his research on the high fat diet connection to PCa and found and reported reported on the 5-HETE connection. He published more than 250 journal reports and led much of the early research and development of HIV-AIDS treatments.

In his book he advocates a modified Mediteranian diet, one that greatly reduces/eliminates eggs, dairy and fats from poultry and land animals.

JNF, I was reading last night, a Q&A piece 0n the Cleveland Clinic Wellness Institute website. The cardiologist answering patient questions, in response to one of the questions posed, stated that while he believes the Esselstyn diet (strict plant based, no oils) has merit, the evidence he's seen points to the Mediterranean diet working just as well.
Also, if I remember correctly, cashlessclay's diet, which seems to have kept his rising PSA at bay, is pretty much Mediterranean diet-like. (I'll go back, check that and insert an edit if I'm wrong.)

This is what I'm leaning towards. Partly because the plant based diet is unsustainable, for me at least. And while the zero grain diet is easier, it's still not easy, I think not sustainable for me, as a lifestyle.
Posted 7/6/2017 1:56 AM (GMT 0)
Damm we humans sure make life complicated...do this...don't do this...dont do that...do that...and we can't even see it...they are all methods of control...if we can't exercise self discipline in the things we need to...and everyone knows in their heart of heart{lessen they have gone past the point of no return}it has zip to do with bread wheat or wonder....yes friends that point does exist...and when you past it you will know it because it will give you a false sense of freedom...from which you will never {sorry]escape...not because you can't but because you wont want too...the feeling will be tantalizingly rapturess...fools gold...pyrite??...when this happens...the choice is solid...made...so it can happen years...decades be fore you croak...and croak ye will.. " be ware all ye who enter here" if I could this is where the witches cackle comes in...any way I digress...its not what you do or do not do its who you are. you either are or you are not...Btw you will never get this by trying...you will need help...pride negates the proud and you become the referent...never the real...and you will never even know it...man thats some scary crap right their...
Posted 7/6/2017 2:11 AM (GMT 0)
Logomeister
To continue your last post....yes you are friend, yes you are. LOL That is some heavy philosophy right there man...Love it..
Wing(s) and a prayer
Posted 7/6/2017 2:40 AM (GMT 0)
Perhaps after "What the Health", read /robbwolf.com/2017/07/03/what-the-health-a-wolfs-eye-review/

- Wilderness
Posted 7/6/2017 3:11 AM (GMT 0)
Wilderness, yes, that's the link that Tudpock offered as a counterpoint to What The Health, and which I referred to in an earlier post - 4th one down on this page.
Posted 7/6/2017 5:54 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for your courage Wings...
Posted 7/6/2017 6:39 AM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...

EDIT: observation has convince me that they(even if just via yogurt) are most assuredly helpful in battling some of the SEs of antibiotics. But how many of our doctors have told us, when prescribing antibiotics, about probiotics? Show of hands? I have never been told that, and have numerous friends and relatives who would say the same. Our grandson just got a round of ABs for strep throat and, as usual, no mention of probiotics.

(Hand in the air) My doctor recommended taking probiotics when I was prescribed an antibiotic. I think that new physicians are better informed about this than older ones. Although my primary care physician is older, I prefer younger physicians who have, in my opinion, better understanding of innovations in their specialties. I have found this to be the case with dermatology, cardiology, pulmonology, urology and surgery.
Posted 7/6/2017 1:17 PM (GMT 0)
(Hand down) No doctor I've ever had recommended taking probiotics.

But isn't that a fascinating fact that if you get the probiotics and fiber just right, that "wind" has an almost sweet smell. I don't need a 20 year study to tell me that's a good thing.
Posted 7/6/2017 2:18 PM (GMT 0)

Tim G said...

BillyBob@388 said...

EDIT: observation has convince me that they(even if just via yogurt) are most assuredly helpful in battling some of the SEs of antibiotics. But how many of our doctors have told us, when prescribing antibiotics, about probiotics? Show of hands? I have never been told that, and have numerous friends and relatives who would say the same. Our grandson just got a round of ABs for strep throat and, as usual, no mention of probiotics.

(Hand in the air) My doctor recommended taking probiotics when I was prescribed an antibiotic. I think that new physicians are better informed about this than older ones. Although my primary care physician is older, I prefer younger physicians who have, in my opinion, better understanding of innovations in their specialties. I have found this to be the case with dermatology, cardiology, pulmonology, urology and surgery.

I'm betting that one is a doctor worth keeping! I'm hoping you are right about the younger physicians. Although, my PCP- whose PSA test sent me to the urologist - is young, at least a whole lot younger than me. And he has a somewhat natural approach bias for an M.D. at least, one reason I picked him. He is also vegan. But even he, when he ordered some Cipro for me to take during the wait for my appointment with the uro, did not mention probiotics or even yogurt. (I have found that yogurt can be quit helpful in supplying probiotics, or at least some of the same claimed benefits of same) I have found that some other docs- if the patient asks- will either say that the probiotics/yogurt is a good idea, or at least have no objection. But for them to mention it along with their prescription of antiBs? I can not remember a single one. Hopefully others have had better luck.
Posted 7/6/2017 5:55 PM (GMT 0)
And...once again like most supplements, taking probiotics is not universally accepted as a great idea: health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/articles/2017-02-22/you-probably-shouldnt-be-taking-that-probiotic-this-digestive-expert-says

Jim
Posted 7/6/2017 7:38 PM (GMT 0)

Tudpock18 said...
And...once again like most supplements, taking probiotics is not universally accepted as a great idea: health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/articles/2017-02-22/you-probably-shouldnt-be-taking-that-probiotic-this-digestive-expert-says

Jim

I wasn't going to say anything.

this stuff gets a certain "momentum" going (medicine's equivalent to the news?) And because it "makes sense"...all the more reason.

the science can lag the standard of care

I've had everything there is to throw at my conditions. Probiotics, PPI's....stuff I've never heard of before for ailments that no one had proved I had. There was a time...a year ago....i carried around a "man purse" with a dozen viles of meds. I couldn't keep up with what drug was supposed to be treating what condition!

Little by little (and some not so slowly)....I just stopped taking them. Who knows...I may pay the price...but I'll do so knowing what's wrong with me rather than throwing miracle mystery drugs that sound good at scientifically undiagnosed, "probable" problems.

Post Edited (island time) : 7/6/2017 1:48:03 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/6/2017 7:57 PM (GMT 0)
Which is worse? Being sick...and feeling healthy? Or being healthy...and feeling sick?
Posted 7/6/2017 8:54 PM (GMT 0)
No matter how much Probiotics you take they never become members of your intestinal ecosystem and when you stop taking it, their numbers decrease very quickly (days).
A not particularly controversial conclusion is then that, according to nature's order, these probiotic microbes simply do not belong in your naturally established, extremely complex interaction between your bacterias and between them and you as organism. Probiotics are probably not dangerous to healthy individuals but why take them if they do not ever become established members of your gut ecosystem?
Posted 7/6/2017 9:14 PM (GMT 0)

Gemlin said...
No matter how much Probiotics you take they never become members of your intestinal ecosystem and when you stop taking it, their numbers decrease very quickly (days).
A not particularly controversial conclusion is then that, according to nature's order, these probiotic microbes simply do not belong in your naturally established, extremely complex interaction between your bacterias and between them and you as organism. Probiotics are probably not dangerous to healthy individuals but why take them if they do not ever become established members of your gut ecosystem?

Because they solve occasional problems? As in this quote: "Jack & Diane said...
Tim,

about 4 years ago my husband somehow got a terrible case of cdiff that landed him in the hospital in isolation for a week. A big part of his treatment was probiotics and he's been taking them ever since. " And do you have evidence that they never become a part of your gut ecosystem? The anti-biotics kill them off at least as well as they do the bad bugs. It makes sense to attempt to replace them, and this has worked out well for me and numerous people I know of.
Posted 7/6/2017 9:17 PM (GMT 0)

island time said...

Tudpock18 said...
And...once again like most supplements, taking probiotics is not universally accepted as a great idea: health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/articles/2017-02-22/you-probably-shouldnt-be-taking-that-probiotic-this-digestive-expert-says

Jim

I wasn't going to say anything.

this stuff gets a certain "momentum" going (medicine's equivalent to the news?) And because it "makes sense"...all the more reason.

the science can lag the standard of care

I've had everything there is to throw at my conditions. Probiotics, PPI's....stuff I've never heard of before for ailments that no one had proved I had. There was a time...a year ago....i carried around a "man purse" with a dozen viles of meds. I couldn't keep up with what drug was supposed to be treating what condition!

Little by little (and some not so slowly)....I just stopped taking them. Who knows...I may pay the price...but I'll do so knowing what's wrong with me rather than throwing miracle mystery drugs that sound good at scientifically undiagnosed, "probable" problems.

Here is different view:
/gutbliss.com/

When they say we probably should not take probiotics, does that include after a round of antibiotics, and does that include yogurt and other foods known to supply a good dose of them?

EDIT: never mind re: after antibiotics, I just saw this:

Somebody said...


This doesn't mean that there aren't any good reasons to take a probiotic, though. There are a select few species or strains of probiotics that have been well-tested and shown to have a benefit for certain health conditions, including constipation, ulcerative colitis, high cholesterol and antibiotic-associated diarrhea. One yeast-based probiotic has been shown to protect against infection with C. difficile, which is associated with life-threatening diarrhea. It's not a bad idea, then, to temporarily use a probiotic supplement if you (or your child) must take a course of antibiotic medications – and this is particularly so if you have a past history of C. difficile infection. But, as for routine supplementation of probiotics for healthy people seeking general "immunity" or well-being benefits? I wouldn't bother.

I believe that someday soon, researchers will develop a "version 2.0" probiotic supplement that will be worth taking. It will likely be a complementary cocktail of multiple strains of bacteria, and quite possibly, it may be individually tailored to a person based on his or her health status (or DNA or stool sample). Perhaps it will even take the form of a freeze-dried "poo pill" derived from supremely healthy master donors that will replace an entire microbial profile with a healthier one.

[See: 10 Weird Things That Can Make You Poop.]

But until that time, I believe that the best way to keep your gut's microscopic residents healthy and thriving is to consume a healthy, diverse, high-fiber diet that nourishes them, rather than trying to force interloping critters into their tightly-knit community.


health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/articles/2017-02-22/you-probably-shouldnt-be-taking-that-probiotic-this-digestive-expert-says

Wonder how this dietitian feels about yogurt?

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/6/2017 3:24:02 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/6/2017 9:25 PM (GMT 0)
Legit question,
If someone, (on a health board), wants to be proactive and take charge of their own health. Not to sit back in a pity party. Move forward and do whatever it takes, and do whatever painstaking research it takes and then follow the advice of a preponderance of the experts. All with their doctors full approval and guidance, of course, and even say its helps them.
Why do people here, (on a health board), have a problem with that?
Posted 7/6/2017 9:25 PM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...

Gemlin said...
No matter how much Probiotics you take they never become members of your intestinal ecosystem and when you stop taking it, their numbers decrease very quickly (days).
A not particularly controversial conclusion is then that, according to nature's order, these probiotic microbes simply do not belong in your naturally established, extremely complex interaction between your bacterias and between them and you as organism. Probiotics are probably not dangerous to healthy individuals but why take them if they do not ever become established members of your gut ecosystem?

Because they solve occasional problems? As in this quote: "Jack & Diane said...
Tim,

about 4 years ago my husband somehow got a terrible case of cdiff that landed him in the hospital in isolation for a week. A big part of his treatment was probiotics and he's been taking them ever since. " And do you have evidence that they never become a part of your gut ecosystem? The anti-biotics kill them off at least as well as they do the bad bugs. It makes sense to attempt to replace them, and this has worked out well for me and numerous people I know of.

Yes, but will consuming probiotics make any difference to your health—if you are already healthy? I fully understand you try it if you have problems?
Posted 7/6/2017 9:46 PM (GMT 0)

Gemlin said...

BillyBob@388 said...

Gemlin said...
No matter how much Probiotics you take they never become members of your intestinal ecosystem and when you stop taking it, their numbers decrease very quickly (days).
A not particularly controversial conclusion is then that, according to nature's order, these probiotic microbes simply do not belong in your naturally established, extremely complex interaction between your bacterias and between them and you as organism. Probiotics are probably not dangerous to healthy individuals but why take them if they do not ever become established members of your gut ecosystem?

Because they solve occasional problems? As in this quote: "Jack & Diane said...
Tim,

about 4 years ago my husband somehow got a terrible case of cdiff that landed him in the hospital in isolation for a week. A big part of his treatment was probiotics and he's been taking them ever since. " And do you have evidence that they never become a part of your gut ecosystem? The anti-biotics kill them off at least as well as they do the bad bugs. It makes sense to attempt to replace them, and this has worked out well for me and numerous people I know of.

Yes, but will consuming probiotics make any difference to your health—if you are already healthy? I fully understand you try it if you have problems?

I can not of course speak to that. I certainly have no evidence that a perfectly healthy person would somehow be even more healthy by taking probiotic sups or even eating foods known to have substantial loads of proBs. So you may have a good point there. Of course, some of us here have already mentioned things seeming to be happier in the gastrointestinal department when we are either taking the supps or eating yogurt and such. But that of course is pure anecdote. Plus, just because I think things go better when I am adding those items, I was still not called unhealthy when I did not take them. So, was I perfectly healthy- as I thought I was- back at my normal state before I took them?

I have to take back my statement that I did not know anyone personally whose doctors had put them on probiotic supps or food. There is a 90+ year old guy I know who told me about the life long(his normal) gastro problems he had(reflux/heartburn/gas etc etc). I will have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure it was his gastroenterologist who, after various scopes and tests and medicines, with little success, finally told him to eat some Activia (yogurt) before meals a couple of times a day. He said he has continued that for years, and has virtually no more problems, and now eats anything he wants. Bottom line, he does much better doing that. I will ask him next time I see him if it was his doctor that put him onto that or someone else, but I'm pretty sure it was. Of course, that was still not telling someone to eat some yogurt or take supps routnely when you put them onto to antiBs, which I suspect most do not do. This was just sort of a last resort, if memory serves.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/6/2017 3:49:53 PM (GMT-6)

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