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Posted 9/1/2017 4:25 PM (GMT 0)
I'm totally with Nick2017 on diet. Vegan all the way. Also highly recommend viewing the films he listed. Especially, "What the Health."

My doctors laughed at the idea diet had anything to do with PCa.

I am currently on an 80-10-10 vegan diet. That's 80% carbs, 10% fat, 10% protein. Sometimes this diet is known as Dr. Graham's 80-10-10 diet. He developed the diet at a time he was working as a nutritionist for pro athletes, who were trying to improve their performance to higher peak levels. His most famous client was Martina Navratilova.

I employ a clinical nutritionist with PHDs in nutrition and bio-medical engineering. Not cheap. lol He has designed for me a customized version of the 80-10-10 diet, which has two cycles, a high and low cycle. In its most basic form, it is 10 days on a low methionine regimen, which is very heavy on fruit, with also some vegetables and salads. The second cycle, the high methionine phase, is 4 days on "comfort foods." meaning pasta, rice, veggies, bread and vegan butter, vegan pizza, that sort of food. He's trying to "fatten me up," as I am extremely thin,

That's the basic plan but he tweaks it from time to time, and also supplies me with certain supplements, not a lot of them, about a half dozen.

I like the diet OK, but really look forward to the high cycle days! lol

So far, so good, but it is a work in progress.

P.S. For a long time, I was on a low carb ketogenic diet, which clearly slowed the progress of the disease. However, at one point, I went to Paleo diet, a form of ketogenic diet. Absolute disaster, mainly on account of dairy products, IMHO. PSA soared. As Dr. Robert Morse says, "If you have a tumor, and want it to grow, drink milk!" lol But it is really not funny at all.

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 9/2/2017 2:34:26 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/1/2017 7:04 PM (GMT 0)
Nick totally agree. My wife is a retired PT, and the last seminar she attended was titled "they can't bury you if you are still moving!" She makes me walk 18 holes of golf every day! Denis
Posted 9/2/2017 1:42 AM (GMT 0)
Good thread with plenty of interesting input from all - thank you!

GG saw a dietician after being diagnosed - a top-gun professor who teaches dietetics at a major university here. At the time, we thought our diet was pretty healthy, but we were just kidding ourselves really. Waaaay too much dairy, cheese, white bread, red meat and fatty poultry etc. We ditched most of that stuff and now have a mainly plant based diet, with plenty of wholegrains and some wild caught fish once or twice a week.

We have both dropped quite a bit of weight and feel good for it! Whether or not it will help keep GG in remission is entirely debatable, but it sure can't hurt right? If diet can prevent and even cure diabetes, then clearly it has some kind of influence over what is happening within our bodies.

I also invested in a book by a nutritionist which we are loving. It's called "Healing Smoothies - 100 Research-Based, Delicious Recipes That Provide Nutrition Support for Cancer Prevention and Recovery" written by Daniella Chace who has a Master’s degree in Nutrition from Bastyr University in Seattle, WA. And no - I'm not being paid to advertise this! LOL.

Whether or not you put any faith whatsoever in food science, the smoothies are downright delicious, and we both enjoy a different one every single morning, and have done since GG's surgery. I can highly recommend the book if you just feel like a delish drink every morning to get your day underway! http://daniellachace.com/healing-smoothies/

Our freezer now looks like a farmer's market stall instead of the meat specials section at the local super! Took a minute to get used to, but we are 100% converted now. Still treat ourselves to the odd red meat fest, but that's a rare occasion these days.

Denis - your wife sounds awesome - love the title of that seminar!
Posted 9/2/2017 2:13 AM (GMT 0)
My husband and I also switched to a plant based diet *with the exception of the occasional "treat" as mentioned below. No eggs, dairy, beef or chicken. Basically vegan but with fish once or twice a week. We did agree to a treat once every 3 to 4 weeks like a burger or pizza for him just to keep him sane. For me, I don't really have interest in that. I feel much better (physically) sticking with the plant based diet.

It has not been 100% easy for him, but it wasn't the hardest thing either. I've been able to find recipies that he actually said are good and find that shopping at Whole Foods makes it easier on me. They have vegan options for lots of items.
Posted 9/2/2017 3:03 AM (GMT 0)
Same as above and I do sometimes have a glass of red wine... I miss my yogurt
Posted 9/2/2017 4:11 PM (GMT 0)
Jaybee_007 and Jaybee&GG

How do you know that your diet is working?
If your prostate is out, and your PSA is measurable,
then ultrasensitive PSA testing every 3 months would
be a good indicator if diet changes are effective. If
this is not the case, and you are taking the advice of
someone else, make sure that person has data that
supports the efficacy of their approach.

I do not think that methionine restriction is neither
practical nor necessary for an effective diet. I think
that Dr. G's diet is totally unsuitable for slowing
cancer progression, and I doubt that he makes such
a claim.

And, I think that "Healing Smoothies" in the morning
are highly likely to undo any otherwise effective dietary
changes made. Blended fruit will result in an insulin
spike and insulin/insulin growth factor receptors are
over-expressed in cancer cells. I have had good diets
go south by just adding a health smoothie in the AM.

Finally, WFM uses canola oil for almost all their cooked
vegetables, which is not want you want. Canola oil is
high in linoleic acid, which is converted to arachidonic acid,
goes to 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX), to 5-HETE which blocks
apoptosis of cancer cells.

It's dangerous out there, be careful.

Cashless
Posted 9/2/2017 5:46 PM (GMT 0)
Since my dx in January 17 I've done a fair amount of reading. There is information that indicates that diet changes can help. Here's some books that talk about cancer and diet:

The Anti-Cancer Diet by David Khayat
Anti-Cancer a New Way of Life by David Servan-Schreiber
Radical Remission by Kelly Turner.

Here's an interesting study:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prostate-cancer/expert-answers/pomegranate-juice/faq-20058204

I've significantly reduced red meat and dairy, increased fruits and vegetables, increased consumption of tumeric, ginger, garlic, and green tea. Avoiding processed foods.

Here is some information from the National Cancer Institute that includes information on green tea:
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/prostate-supplements-pdq#section/_56
Posted 9/2/2017 5:46 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Jaybees,
Now if someone can actually tell us unequivocally, with good science to back it up what that healthy diet is( whether PC healthy or heart healthy or overall healthy), with actual science and trials to back it up that would be nice. If interested, then see my recent thread discussing the new study following 135,000 folks for some years, and finding that those with either higher carb or lowered fat diets, even lowered saturated fats, had higher all cause mortality. This of course said nothing about cancer, but I'm sure both cancer and heart disease were somehow included in the term "all cause". When looking simply at death as the measure- vs death for some specific cause- those with more fat and less carb did noticeably better. Maybe suicides were a significant factor? Who knows, I don't.

Now I do note the several positive reviews in this thread for plant based diet, and I do take notice based on their results that they might be on to something. And as to whether or not diet can lead to lower death rates from PC, several here say there is very little evidence. Dr. Dean Ornish would beg to differ, and has tumor pics to make his point, but on the proof scale ( large numbers ) folks would say his proof is quite low. He of course is close to a zero fat kind of guy. A tough way to live IMO, plus the big study ( not a trial though!) says that low fat will kill me from all cause, whether it does something for my PC or not.

Good luck figuring it all out! Here is hoping we will soon know for sure!
Posted 9/2/2017 8:16 PM (GMT 0)
BillyBob,

Diets designed to improve general health are likely NOT effective
against prostate cancer progression. The cancer diet is half science
and half art. For example, a healthy diet may include oatmeal for
breakfast. An anti-cancer progression diet can have oatmeal, but you
cannot presoak it, and you cannot eat it with a lot of liquids. Too
much liquid, say almond milk, with the oatmeal will induce an insulin
response similar to pre-soaking.

A successful anti-cancer progression diet also appears to be very
heart healthy.

Cashless
Posted 9/2/2017 8:52 PM (GMT 0)

cashlessclay said...
Jaybee_007 and Jaybee&GG

You make a lot of good points, Cashless. Clearly, you know your stuff.

How do you know that your diet is working?
If your prostate is out, and your PSA is measurable,
then ultrasensitive PSA testing every 3 months would
be a good indicator if diet changes are effective. If
this is not the case, and you are taking the advice of
someone else, make sure that person has data that
supports the efficacy of their approach.

I still have my prostate. I have my PSA tested regularly. So far, so good, but it is a work in progress. I was impressed by the data (studies) my nutritionist presented to me. That's why I hired him.

I do not think that methionine restriction is neither
practical nor necessary for an effective diet. I think
that Dr. G's diet is totally unsuitable for slowing
cancer progression, and I doubt that he makes such
a claim.

Methionine restriction is not at all practical. It is a very extreme measure to take. I am stage 4, and far advanced. Otherwise, I would not be doing this diet. Dr. G makes no claim that his diet will slow cancer progression. The diet is only a part of the protocol I am on, and my nutritionist makes no claim that it will cure cancer.

OTOH, there are studies that correlate a low methionine diet with increased longevity. And a vegan diet that is long on fruit and veggies, and low on protein is a low methione diet, as the methionine content of food is closely tied to protein content.

And, I think that "Healing Smoothies" in the morning
are highly likely to undo any otherwise effective dietary
changes made. Blended fruit will result in an insulin
spike and insulin/insulin growth factor receptors are
over-expressed in cancer cells. I have had good diets
go south by just adding a health smoothie in the AM.

For a long time, I was on a ketogenic diet, ultra low carb, and it did slow tumor progression, which made me a little complacent. Then I had fear of fruit, because of the sugar/carbs. But I tinkered with my diet too much, mostly on account of losing too much weight; when I tried paleo, a form of ketogenic, that was a real disaster, because of the IGF-1. My nutritionist's view is that it is the IGF-1, which triggers the tumor to increase it's intake of glucose and grow, not the other way around. Which is why low protein, and vegan is a necessary part of the diet. Low fat is also necessary, although I don't understand that as well; something I still need to learn about. However, I do know that it has to do with keeping the lymph system functioning at a high level. Believe me, it was difficult getting over my fear of fruit.

Finally, WFM uses canola oil for almost all their cooked
vegetables, which is not want you want. Canola oil is
high in linoleic acid, which is converted to arachidonic acid,
goes to 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX), to 5-HETE which blocks
apoptosis of cancer cells.

I agree 100%. How they can do that, and call themselves a health food store, boggles the mind! lol

It's dangerous out there, be careful.

Amen to that! Thanks for your concern.

Cashless

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 9/2/2017 3:27:15 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/2/2017 9:31 PM (GMT 0)
Billy Bob wrote:

"Now if someone can actually tell us unequivocally, with good science to back it up what that healthy diet is (whether PC healthy or heart healthy or overall healthy), with actual science and trials to back it up that would be nice."

Well Billy Bob, there is! Dr. Michael Greger, who you will recognize from several of the Netflix documentaries I recommended, has a non-profit site that sifts through ALL the studies. He has 19 researchers who analyze the studies, particularly who funded them, and distills down which ones have validity:

https://nutritionfacts.org

Watch all the videos that pertain to PC. I like him because he cuts through all the BS. Start with this one:

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-story-of-nutritionfacts-org/

Enjoy!

Nick

P.S. Get his book from the library: HOW NOT TO DIE. In regards to PC: Quit dairy products!
Posted 9/2/2017 11:02 PM (GMT 0)
Cashless - it would seem you are the dietary font of all wisdom! Thank you so much for your knowledgeable input to this discussion. And of course we have no idea our diet is working (for anything, other than losing over 10kg each in body fat, which has been a major bonus for both of us, as we feel much better for it). The fruit in our morning smoothie is pretty much the only fruit we have each day - the rest of the day focuses on veg/protein/carbs - nothing processed at all.

I know it's a big ask, but would it be possible for you to give us all your best advice re: a good (one day) menu to keep us all on the straight and narrow? I'd love to hear your opinion (particularly as I had no idea about the oatmeal issue). Clearly I have a lot to learn...!
Posted 9/3/2017 1:12 AM (GMT 0)

Nick2017 said...
Billy Bob wrote:

"Now if someone can actually tell us unequivocally, with good science to back it up what that healthy diet is (whether PC healthy or heart healthy or overall healthy), with actual science and trials to back it up that would be nice."

Well Billy Bob, there is! Dr. Michael Greger, who you will recognize from several of the Netflix documentaries I recommended, has a non-profit site that sifts through ALL the studies. He has 19 researchers who analyze the studies, particularly who funded them, and distills down which ones have validity:

https://nutritionfacts.org

Watch all the videos that pertain to PC. I like him because he cuts through all the BS. Start with this one:

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-story-of-nutritionfacts-org/

Enjoy!

Nick

P.S. Get his book from the library: HOW NOT TO DIE. In regards to PC: Quit dairy products!


Indeed, I am very, very familiar with Greger's work, I post his videos here fairly frequently, and read his book a year or two back. I just copied the link to the study(from my other thread) www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)32252-3/fulltext indicating that low fat and/or high carb eaters have a significantly higher all cause death rates, plus that higher saturated fat is associated with significantly LOWER stroke rates, and that saturated or total fat has no correlation with heart attacks or cardio-vascular disease. I posted this to the discussion of his video about saturated fat being the cause of type 2 diabetes. Because I was wondering what they might think of this study. I'm thinking they are going to say it is a bogus study, but then some others would say that about their idea that fat, rather than high carb, causes type 2 diabetes. No responses yet.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/2/2017 7:19:09 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/3/2017 1:39 AM (GMT 0)
I followed a paleo diet prior to my dx and found it easy to stick with and I felt great. I was quite dismayed when I started research the diet/PC connection. I've since knocked off the eggs, bacon, chicken,cut way back on the red meat and added fish. I'll never be a vegan, it simply isn't a long term palatable solution for me.
Posted 9/3/2017 12:27 PM (GMT 0)

Robertmp said...
I followed a paleo diet prior to my dx and found it easy to stick with and I felt great. I was quite dismayed when I started research the diet/PC connection. I've since knocked off the eggs, bacon, chicken,cut way back on the red meat and added fish. I'll never be a vegan, it simply isn't a long term palatable solution for me.

Vegan is better, but pasture-raised meat, free-range chicken, and wild-caught fish are not so bad in moderation, relatively speaking, i.e, small portions, and not at every meal.

So you are headed in the right direction, IMHO, and have taken steps to improve your overall health, which, in and of itself, puts you ahead in the game in dealing with your PCa.

Having said that, it is all for naught, if you are still eating dairy. Several on this thread have said it, but it bears repeating, as nothing is more important in regards to PCa and diet. Cheese sends the message to cancer cells: GROW. I gave up dairy products, except for yogurt and kefir, because of the probiotics.

But dairy is dairy, and it is dairy. Live probiotics cultures are very good for your insides, but can be had from other kinds of food, like brine pickles (no vinegar) and sauerkraut made with no vinegar. Basically, any pickles or sauerkraut that are on the shelves, and not in the cooler section are worthless, and have no probiotics in them. A number of Japanese fermented products, such as natto, are a good source of probiotics, as well. Most Japanese people eat natto everyday with rice as part of their breakfast meal. The Koreans eat kimchi every day, another good source of live probiotics.

I was addicted to yogurt and kefir, and it was extremely hard to kick them, because for nutrition, taste and convenience (fast food), they are hard to beat.

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 9/3/2017 6:31:34 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/3/2017 12:45 PM (GMT 0)
The dairy item is interesting: I have an unusual food intolerance in that I cannot digest butterfat (no, I'm not lactose intolerant, butterfat is the problem), so I've been on essentially low to no dairy diet my whole life. And yet, both PC and melanoma have hit me.

I've also never really bought into the fat is bad carbs are good thing. When I eat a lot of carbs, I don't get satiated, just a little fat is all it takes for me.
Posted 9/3/2017 4:26 PM (GMT 0)
Jaybee&GG asks. . . would it be possible for you to give us all your best advice
re: a good (one day) menu to keep us all on the straight and narrow?


Cancer diets cover "prevention", "progression" and "nourishment". When you read diet related
material, it's good to keep this in mind. They are not the same diets.

My experience involves "progression", finding a diet that limits cancer growth, by following what I
eat, how I prepare it, and when I eat it. I use the ultrasensitive PSA test from Labcorp and calculate
PSADT to measure progress. I'm in my 5th year of "research", "try it", "pass or fail" and "adjust"
process.

The process turns out to be quite binary. My natural or non diet PSADT is about 7 months.
When the diet is working, it is about 5 years. If I make a change, like add a morning smoothie,
presoak the oatmeal, remove all soy products, take an iron supplement, have too much dietary iron,
add extra (almond) milk to the oatmeal, the doubling time doesn't go from 5 years to four or three
years . . . it goes back to seven months. This was very unexpected.

Here are some general rules:
* Avoid supplements containing chondroiitin sulfate (joint pain) and iron.
* Avoid insulin spikes (all sugars, fast carbs); cancer cells have more insulin receptors than benign cells.
* Avoid high iron foods (red meat, organ meats, etc.); cancer cell have more transferrin receptors.
* Avoid foods high in arachidonic and linoleic acids (meats, egg yolks, poultry, many vegetable oils).
* Only trace dairy and alcohol.
* Have foods containing soy daily.

This diet is a vegan + seafood - dairy - fast carbs.

So, for breakfast I have medium size bowl of steel cut oatmeal, walnuts, some raspberries, and a
small amount of almond milk.

For lunch and dinner, I start with a platter of sliced raw vegetables that includes broccoli,cauliflower,
red peppers, carrots, onions, cucumbers, kale, tomatoes, soy beans, olives, or any other non starchy
vegetables. I have it with hummus (no canola oil), mixed with turmeric, black pepper, rosemary and
oregano.

Then, two or three from this list: Vegan soups without canola oil, steamed non starchy vegetables,
stir fried tofu with mushrooms, carrots or any other vegetable. Herring with onions, tuna, salmon.
Steamed mussels Thai style, red or green curry with vegetables or seafood, are examples.

Cashless
Posted 9/3/2017 5:48 PM (GMT 0)
Jaybee_007

This may be the origin of your diet. Note: methionine restriction is polyamine restriction.


www.anticancerbook.com/post/Reconciling-a-diet-low-in-polyamines-with-the-Anticancer-diet.html

Cashless
Posted 9/3/2017 6:17 PM (GMT 0)

halbert said...
The dairy item is interesting: I have an unusual food intolerance in that I cannot digest butterfat (no, I'm not lactose intolerant, butterfat is the problem), so I've been on essentially low to no dairy diet my whole life. And yet, both PC and melanoma have hit me.

I've also never really bought into the fat is bad carbs are good thing. When I eat a lot of carbs, I don't get satiated, just a little fat is all it takes for me.

Your experience(or actually, lack of experience/consumption) with the dairy thing is quite interesting.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/3/2017 12:24:40 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/3/2017 6:33 PM (GMT 0)

Jaybee_007 said...
"If you have a tumor, and want it to grow, drink milk!"

No wonder I had/have prostate cancer!

I was such a Milk ADDICT.

But what about Milk does the body good?

Cashless ---

cashlessclay said...
Jaybee_007

This may be the origin of your diet. Note: methionine restriction is polyamine restriction.


www.anticancerbook.com/post/Reconciling-a-diet-low-in-polyamines-with-the-Anticancer-diet.html

Cashless

If I wanted to buy a few books that guide my diet towards your recommendations, could you tell me which I should buy? ... I see your post above with recommendations on how you normally eat... is there anything else you eat for breakfast? .. also, how do you make your hummus?

Thanks
Zzarth
Posted 9/3/2017 9:25 PM (GMT 0)
Zzarth,

Sorry, I don't read books on the subject. I was an analyst
for 36 years and prefer to do my own research. No medical
background. My best guess would be "Anticancer: A New Way
of Life" by Dr. David Servan-Schreiber. He was fighting for his
life with brain cancer, and lived about 20 years, rather than
the 2-3 years expected. Nothing like actually having cancer
to get your attention. Ask Dr. Charles “Snuffy” Myers.

I only have oatmeal for breakfast.
I buy my hummus made either with no oil or olive oil.

Cashless
Posted 9/3/2017 9:32 PM (GMT 0)
BillyBob, it is, isn't it? I do small quantities of (fat free) dairy for the protein, calcium, etc. But, when I hear people talk about high dairy diets, these are the folks who subscribe to the recommendations to do, what it is, 4 servings of dairy daily or more.

I've never eaten a slice of pizza, or a plate of lasagna, or a slice of cheesecake. Any of them would create massive GI misery within an hour or two followed by (pardon the image) a massive power dump. I subscribe wholeheartedly to the idea that cancer is partly a function of our genetics, partly about our overall environment-including occupational exposures, and partly, well, luck.

I also have a hiatal hernia (and am on PPI's so I can sleep), and measurably high cholesterol.
Posted 9/3/2017 11:01 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you very much Cashless - I appreciate your taking the time to lay that all out for us. It sounds pretty similar to the diet we follow (more raw than ours though); except for the smoothie at the beginning of our day.

I can't imagine giving away fruit entirely - too hard!. I see you slip a few raspberries in, in the morning; perhaps we just need to limit the fruit a bit more. The smoothies generally incorporate green tea cubes and/or non-dairy milk - there is no dairy in any of them. I like to add a few ingredients of my own (Australian - clean - spirulina or Chia etc for a bit of a boost).

GG was an absolute milk addict. He would get up in the middle of the night (every single night) and drink 2-3 glasses of the stuff. He consumed approx. 1 litre a day. All gone now - he drinks organic soy and has grown to enjoy it. I make our own almond milk in the vitamix, and we use organic oat milk to make our oats with.

To make our hummus we put a can of organic chick peas in the vitamix and add some tahini, garlic, lemon juice, sea salt, cumin and a splurt of sri racha if we're feeling adventurous. I add a bit of the liquid from the chickpeas to thin the mix to the right consistency - et voila! It's delish!

Thanks again for sharing - I am keen to incorporate some of your suggestions (namely more raw veg). Have a great day!
Posted 9/4/2017 4:02 AM (GMT 0)

halbert said...

I've never eaten a slice of pizza, or a plate of lasagna.....

That sir, its taking this diet stuff TOO far ;-)

Posted 9/5/2017 8:27 AM (GMT 0)

cashlessclay said...
Jaybee_007

This may be the origin of your diet. Note: methionine restriction is polyamine restriction.


www.anticancerbook.com/post/Reconciling-a-diet-low-in-polyamines-with-the-Anticancer-diet.html

Cashless

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/A%20review%20of%20methionine%20dependency%20and%20the%20role%20of%20methionine%20restriction%20in%20cancer%20growth%20control%20an.pdf?token=AWyrig2oi8GSY6uj51LvKKBrO-k5FE2pMdiYMVpsFmiNWQpoqhO3h7V7boc8VdXX1bNV_BYYTJgp4yLOBVseKPXtG2vTrcGDkXJAd8-Ec9e7bwOSZ2L9Q1pmdxz3DaHu9k97hJpyG22X5YVo7Rqp-Iu-3C17VRPMTN5VEgAqW8ZXuA

and

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Methionine%20restriction%20for%20cancer%20therapy%20-%20Google%20Patents.pdf?token=AWyxRVGKaZ_I8sOhJXl-1RkiOR8KtDol1HfnNFq_7S_LbeZWrUCWUlnbkZrZf8pNFdWA_SnYl33kxT9x07SYEl0UoMKOZhOaCibsndRQK6x5O6t-9YLsn7LgNDF1c48VSnmewzxjkbGXljOrTQU67Am-W4RgXAWu9LLOJzKQUMeigg

Post Edited (Jaybee_007) : 9/5/2017 2:39:19 AM (GMT-6)

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