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The Danger of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

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Posted 7/26/2018 2:34 AM (GMT 0)
Use of complementary and alternative medicines increase risk of death by two-fold. It is not so much for prostate cancer patients because most (75%) in these 5-year studies were low or intermediate risk. But if we had 20 years of follow-up, there's no reason to think that the deaths due to complementary medicine use wouldn't be just as bad. Users of such medicines, even when they use conventional cancer therapies too, tend to refuse the full range of therapies available to them. They are dead wrong to do so.

/pcnrv.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-danger-of-complementary-and.html

Supplements are drugs. Be wary of the drug pushers pandemic to sites like this, and especially Life Extensions. The drugs you are taking may lull you into a false sense of security.
Posted 7/26/2018 3:18 AM (GMT 0)
Or perhaps some folks refuse the full range of therapies because they choose at that point to let nature take its course - that further therapy would lessen the quality of their lives and they value quality over lifespan. I don't think we should judge them "dead wrong". It's a pretty common choice among people I've known including my mother, father, grandmother. They're dead now, but who's to say they were wrong? I admire each of them for their courage.

I'm not encouraging supplements or false-hope peddlers. But we're all mortal and who's to judge whether the end of life choices some make about medical therapies are right or wrong? Heck, plenty of folks are killed or disabled by medical error as well.

Wilderness.
Posted 7/26/2018 3:23 AM (GMT 0)
Tall,

I think you have an error in the part that said...
Differences in 5-year survival were significant for breast cancer (85% vs 90%), lung cancer (20% vs 41%), and colorectal cancer (82% vs 84%), but not for lung cancer or prostate cancer.

It lists lung cancer twice, once as significant (20% vs 41%) and again as not significant.

Also, I notice that the 20% vs 41% figure for lung cancer is the same for both complementary and alternative therapy. It's something of a coincidence that the pair of percentages are exactly the same. I wonder if one result didn't get mixed in with the other somehow.
Posted 7/26/2018 3:43 AM (GMT 0)
Wilderness,

My father was a physician and he told a story about one of his professors in medical school. The man was the head of the urology department at the hospital and the head of urology at the school as well. While my dad was enrolled there the doctor was himself diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer. His diagnosis was something of an open secret at the college and everyone was waiting to see what he would do. This was around 70 years ago and the treatment options were fewer and worse. The option the doctor chose was to close his practice, resign his professorship, marry his secretary and board a ship for a round-the-world honeymoon cruise.

So yes, the patient has every right to refuse treatment and as long as the quality of life vs survival time tradeoff is clear then such a decision is perfectly rational.
Posted 7/26/2018 4:00 AM (GMT 0)

PeterDisAbelard. said...
Wilderness,

My father was a physician and he told a story about one of his professors in medical school. The man was the head of the urology department at the hospital and the head of urology at the school as well. While my dad was enrolled there the doctor was himself diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer. His diagnosis was something of an open secret at the college and everyone was waiting to see what he would do. This was around 70 years ago and the treatment options were fewer and worse. The option the doctor chose was to close his practice, resign his professorship, marry his secretary and board a ship for a round-the-world honeymoon cruise.

So yes, the patient has every right to refuse treatment and as long as the quality of life vs survival time tradeoff is clear then such a decision is perfectly rational.

WOW! Makes me think of my 80+ year old neighbor. PSA keeps skyrocketing these last 5 years, no treatment for him. (and yes, he does have PC). Just keeps working in his yard and taking cross country trips.
Posted 7/26/2018 4:05 AM (GMT 0)
"Differences in 5-year survival were significant for breast cancer (85% vs 90%), lung cancer (20% vs 41%), and colorectal cancer (82% vs 84%), but not for lung cancer or prostate cancer. "

Well, now, no sig dif for reatment refusal for PC? Now that is interesting.
Posted 7/26/2018 4:08 AM (GMT 0)

Wilderness said...
Or perhaps some folks refuse the full range of therapies because they choose at that point to let nature take its course - that further therapy would lessen the quality of their lives and they value quality over lifespan. I don't think we should judge them "dead wrong". It's a pretty common choice among people I've known including my mother, father, grandmother. They're dead now, but who's to say they were wrong? I admire each of them for their courage.

I'm not encouraging supplements or false-hope peddlers. But we're all mortal and who's to judge whether the end of life choices some make about medical therapies are right or wrong? Heck, plenty of folks are killed or disabled by medical error as well.

Wilderness.

So true. And how high is the huge # of people who die from SEs of drugs or other treatments? If that happens, they are probably not added to the #s who die of the disease.
Posted 7/26/2018 4:17 AM (GMT 0)
PDA -
Thanks for picking that up! You actually read it! I'll fix it.
Posted 7/26/2018 4:56 AM (GMT 0)
Wilderness-

These studies excluded metastatic patients - so it wasn't among patients who'd exhausted other possibilities, and just said "no more." In fact, complementary medicine use was highest among patients whose characteristics predict improved survival, including younger age, female sex, private insurance, and higher socioeconomic status and educational level. It is very sad that these well-educated people got duped by drug-pushers, like Life Extensions and people who quote them like gospel.
Posted 7/26/2018 5:28 AM (GMT 0)

PeterDisAbelard. said...
Wilderness,

My father was a physician and he told a story about one of his professors in medical school. The man was the head of the urology department at the hospital and the head of urology at the school as well. While my dad was enrolled there the doctor was himself diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer. His diagnosis was something of an open secret at the college and everyone was waiting to see what he would do. This was around 70 years ago and the treatment options were fewer and worse. The option the doctor chose was to close his practice, resign his professorship, marry his secretary and board a ship for a round-the-world honeymoon cruise.

So yes, the patient has every right to refuse treatment and as long as the quality of life vs survival time tradeoff is clear then such a decision is perfectly rational.


Thank You for finishing with that simple powerful truth. In a medical environment 5% is considered significant, with billions of dollars spent on pills to drop blood pressure as an example 3 to 5 mm. With cancer considering what is endured with no promise you will be on the right side of that 5 or even 20 percent, It is patients choice full stop. Numbers needed to treat are rarely discussed by doctors with their patients. Drug companies do all they can to avoid publishing NNT stats. How Doctors Die written by Dr Ken Murray at USC is a good read. https://www.thehappymd.com/blog/bid/295228/How-Doctors-Die
Posted 7/26/2018 5:35 AM (GMT 0)
life cointoss...remember me the origin of Shall we play a game?? confused scool
Posted 7/26/2018 5:37 AM (GMT 0)
now there is a pair eh 142? nite nite!! smile
Posted 7/26/2018 7:22 AM (GMT 0)

Tall Allen said...
Supplements are drugs. Be wary of the drug pushers pandemic to sites like this, and especially Life Extensions. The drugs you are taking may lull you into a false sense of security.

Common supplements seem to have potential to shorten your life, at least in older women but why would older men be different?

"The Iowa Women's Health Study" /www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4114071/ looked at dietary supplements and rate of total mortality.

In conclusion, in this large prospective cohort of older women, we found that most dietary supplements were unrelated to mortality. However, several commonly used dietary vitamin and mineral supplements were associated with increased risk of total mortality
Posted 7/26/2018 1:11 PM (GMT 0)
<< However, several commonly used dietary vitamin
and mineral supplements were associated with increased
risk of total mortality. >>


That's food for thought!

Cashless
Posted 7/26/2018 2:14 PM (GMT 0)
Here's a famous example of how going the "alternative" route failed.

Below is an account of how Steve Jobs, the famous computer guru, came to regret his decision to go with alternative rather than accepted treatment for the pancreatic cancer he had.

Why did he do that?

From the article:

"Asked why "such a smart man could do such a stupid thing," Isaacson said: "I think he felt if you ignore something you don't want to exist, you can have magical thinking. It had worked for him in the past. He would regret it."

According to the article Jobs delayed conventional treatment for nine months, doing alternative instead during that time, which consisted of "…acupuncture sessions, drinking special fruit juices, visiting "spiritualists" and using other treatments he found on the internet."

Like many creative people, Jobs seemed to have had a unique way of looking at how the world works, which may have been helpful in developing computers, but not so much in the matter of managing personal health.

Evidently some people do think like that, often with unfortunate consequences.

/www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8841347/Steve-Jobs-regretted-trying-to-beat-cancer-with-alternative-medicine-for-so-long.html
Posted 7/26/2018 2:19 PM (GMT 0)
I could give you a small catalog of people I know, smart people, who've tried alternative medicines and ended up regretting it. I personally know a woman with very early stage breast cancer who refused all conventional treatments and died.

Based on personal experience, I have a low opinion of "alternative" medicines that have not be vetted with proper science.
Posted 7/26/2018 2:33 PM (GMT 0)

Tall Allen said...
It is very sad that these well-educated people got duped by drug-pushers, like Life Extensions and people who quote them like gospel.

The alternative therapy hucksters were a major stress for me a couple years ago when my wife was undergoing chemo for lymphoma. She started watching toxic online videos named "the truth about cancer". She began spouting all their propaganda about how the whole cancer treatment industry is a plot by big pharma to make millions peddling decades old chemicals to unwitting cancer victims.

This was all just months after my RP and during the time when I was trying to get my own adjuvant radiation underway. I had major fears of her quitting her infusions and going on herbs and alkalized water. Where we live there is no shortage of advice from other people who know nothing of your cancer. It's an additional major stress for those already greatly stressed. I was really worried about her. Fortunately I have always been blessed with what I call "healthy skepticism", but she is the type who tends to get involved in MLM's and such. She's never met an opportunist she didn't like.

I am so relieved to have that stage of our lives behind us now.
Posted 7/26/2018 2:48 PM (GMT 0)
Losing the sense of control for our lives to a deadly disease can be a powerful negative feeling. Maybe this is partly why normally sensible people can fall for these predators, who provide what may seem like hope for regaining that control.
Posted 7/26/2018 3:33 PM (GMT 0)
Some of the below statements may indeed be correct. Even if worthless in context because it is not as though any one was suggesting abandoning traditional treatments. Although, of course, the SEs and even deaths from prescription drugs every year, and even the 60,000(is that # right? if so, staggering) deaths a year that come from opioid ODs, which mostly happen to folks who become addicted after being prescribed FDA approved drugs. And a # that has already been reduced by the thousands in states that have legalized medical(or recreational?) MJ(alternative? natural? complimentary?). And don't even bother to consider that Life Extension, which someone hates so much, highly recommends the drug Metformin, which I don't think they even sell, they just recommend you ask your doctor about it, and which if as good as they claim would end up potentially reducing their sales of vitamins.

But forget about all of that for now, none of that is really why I am making this post and would lead to endless debate. The reason I am posting this is to ask: is there a certain irony about the below statements, and accusations of vitamin advocates being drug pushers, all coming from the same source? Is that ironic at all?

Tall Allen said...

Supplements are drugs. Be wary of the drug pushers pandemic to sites like this, and especially Life Extensions. The drugs you are taking may lull you into a false sense of security.

It is very sad that these well-educated people got duped by drug-pushers, like Life Extensions

is metformin unavailable in Iran?

Those Iranians who you are so fond of citing would have been better off taking metformin, which unlike Vitamin D, may have some effect on prostate cancer.

Why would anyone take Vitamin D for diabetes when there are excellent medicines?

Men on ADT can preserve bone mineral density by taking Xgeva or a bisphosphonate like Zometa. Estrogen patches may also prevent loss of bone mineral density.


Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/26/2018 10:26:18 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/26/2018 3:40 PM (GMT 0)
For those of you who have a favorite diet, or supplement, or are into goat yoga or mindfulness training, or any other "complementary" medical treatment, and are tempted to rush to its defense, I'd like to recommend that you read Tall's writeup closely; it may not say what you think it does.

The studies do not show that these off-the-mainstream therapies are harmful in themselves. It specifically says that "The differences in survival were attributable to refusal of conventional treatment". So, taken as a whole, the herbs and botanicals, vitamins and minerals, probiotics, Ayurvedic medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, homeopathy and naturopathy, deep breathing, yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, acupuncture, chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation, meditation, massage, prayer, special diets, progressive relaxation, and/or guided imagery were harmless as long as you didn't let them distract you from continuing sensible mainstream therapies as well.

And since these are observational (database) studies they can show correlation but can't speak to causality, and even if we assume a causal relationship exists we can't show which way it runs. Do alternative treatments lure patients away from more conventional treatments that would have lengthened their lives? Sure, we all know of examples of that happening. On the other hand, do patients fears of the side effects of conventional treatments drive them out into the wasteland of "alternative" medicine? Yeah, that happens, too. There are, for instance, lots of guys who read up on the side effects of, say, Lupron, and say "Oh, the hell no!" and start looking for something else they can do.

So my takeaway isn't that complementary medicine is bad, it's that conventional medicine is crucial. Because the definition of "alternative" medicine includes a rejection of conventional treatments one can't avoid saying it is bad, but the actual pills, or teas, or the number of raspberries in your steel cut oats for breakfast, isn't what does the damage, it's taking your eye off the ball of your doctor's advice.
Posted 7/26/2018 4:36 PM (GMT 0)

PeterDisAbelard. said...
For those of you who have a favorite diet, or supplement, or are into goat yoga or mindfulness training, or any other "complementary" medical treatment, and are tempted to rush to its defense, I'd like to recommend that you read Tall's writeup closely; it may not say what you think it does.

The studies do not show that these off-the-mainstream therapies are harmful in themselves. It specifically says that "The differences in survival were attributable to refusal of conventional treatment". So, taken as a whole, the herbs and botanicals, vitamins and minerals, probiotics, Ayurvedic medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, homeopathy and naturopathy, deep breathing, yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, acupuncture, chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation, meditation, massage, prayer, special diets, progressive relaxation, and/or guided imagery were harmless as long as you didn't let them distract you from continuing sensible mainstream therapies as well.

And since these are observational (database) studies they can show correlation but can't speak to causality, and even if we assume a causal relationship exists we can't show which way it runs. Do alternative treatments lure patients away from more conventional treatments that would have lengthened their lives? Sure, we all know of examples of that happening. On the other hand, do patients fears of the side effects of conventional treatments drive them out into the wasteland of "alternative" medicine? Yeah, that happens, too. There are, for instance, lots of guys who read up on the side effects of, say, Lupron, and say "Oh, the hell no!" and start looking for something else they can do.

So my takeaway isn't that complementary medicine is bad, it's that conventional medicine is crucial. Because the definition of "alternative" medicine includes a rejection of conventional treatments one can't avoid saying it is bad, but the actual pills, or teas, or the number of raspberries in your steel cut oats for breakfast, isn't what does the damage, it's taking your eye off the ball of your doctor's advice.

Sometimes I wish I had read up just a little bit more on surgery and decided on something at least slightly less traditional. Not necessarily an herb or vitamin or diet mind you, just something less commonly used than surgery. But others think the opposite, and who knows if they are right.

But I'd say it is rather obvious that a group that refuses medical treatment ( including AS for PC guys) will do worse than those who don't. ( Though apparently not for PC or lung cancer per the article?) In fact, I'm surprised the #s are not far worse. I actually don't know anyone that has done that, unless maybe they were in the "lots of guys who read up on the side effects of, say, Lupron, and say "Oh, the hell no!" and start looking for something else they can do." group. I'm not sure I even personally know any of those.

I do know plenty of folks who have added a vitamin, exercise or diet to their treatment- with or without their doctors recommendation- but not any who have refused all types of treatment. I have wondered if my DIA should have refused her chemo, which added much misery but didn't do ****. But that was just for her, others may benefit.
Posted 7/26/2018 4:58 PM (GMT 0)
I would guess there are plenty of folks who fall for hucksters. That's why they continue to sell their wares.
One of the problems is that the standard txs. like chemo and HT can be so miserable/scary that it leads folks astray.

TA -- thank you for your work. At times it must feel like a thankless job. I remember when someone would question pomegranite (sp?), there would be a boatload of screams. I see that hasn't changed.

I am now going to email Dr. Lam and see what his latest thinking is on Vit. D3. I take 2000 IU per day. I take so many prescriptions due to other medical issues. I would like to reduce that number!

Mel (who also takes metformin for PC -- TA: any new research on that?)
Posted 7/26/2018 5:14 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Mel,

here is a new study about combining ADT and Metformin: Metformin Added to Prostate Cancer ADT Ups Survival

George
Posted 7/26/2018 5:16 PM (GMT 0)
"So my takeaway isn't that complementary medicine is bad, it's that conventional medicine is crucial. Because the definition of "alternative" medicine includes a rejection of conventional treatments one can't avoid saying it is bad, but the actual pills, or teas, or the number of raspberries in your steel cut oats for breakfast, isn't what does the damage, it's taking your eye off the ball of your doctor's advice."

^^ This is very well said, it should be a sticky at the top. There ARE some from this forum who have done exactly that, taken their eye off the ball. I've been in email contact with a few of them. I keep checking, watching, they check in from time to time. No one suggests that, don't ever do that.
The two can coexist -
1 in 4 Hospitals Now Offer Complementary and Alternative Medicine Therapies
https://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20060720/hospitals-add-alternative-medicine
That link is very old its gone up, they are plenty of others.
https://www.hhnmag.com/articles/5496-more-hospitals-offering-cam
And Moffitt Cancer Center, here in town.
https://moffitt.org/File%20Library/Main%20Nav/Research%20and%20Clinical%20Trials/Cancer%20Control%20Journal/v12n3/146.pdf
https://moffitt.org/patient-family/healing-wellness/

Moffitt Cancer Centers number is 888-663-3488 if someone wants to warn them. Humor is ok mods?

Post Edited (bubbatc) : 7/26/2018 12:01:52 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/26/2018 5:51 PM (GMT 0)
FYI-- Dr. Lam said to continue to take Vit. D3 (2000 IU daily) for bone health.

Mel
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