Diagnosted with PC but PSA drops without treatment.

No way of knowing why thew PSA dropped, but that is usually a good sign. Usual reasons are that there was some inflammation or infection that has lessened. Good that you are tightening your diet, but I am not aware of any study that would indicate that PSA expression would be that responsive after such a short time.

Regarding insurance laws, nothing is in the process of changing anything. Shouldn't be a driver in deciding whether to treat by AS or curative therapy like IGRT. How old are you? Medicare and a supplement plan generally greatly improves the insurance situation for the self-employed.

SergeFL said...
I just started IGRT and had pre-treatment PSA done 3 weeks ago that showed that my PSA dropped 0.8 in just 3 month from 2.7 to 1.9 without any treatments. My PSA was very consistent for the last couple years around 2.5 and slight grows to 2.7 in June 2018. I am really puzzled why PSA went down that far without treatment. I understand possibility of lab error +or- 0.1/0.2 but not 0.8. The only thing I have changed is a very strict diet (no sugar(glucose), no dairy. no glutton and no red meat) started beginning of April 2018. Can it be indication that cancer is shrinking due to diet? Any other explanations. I understand that I am qualified for AS but I decided to go through treatment because of insurance uncertainties, as I am self-employed and do not know what happens to Obamacare, premiums and participating insurance companies. My Dad was self-employed and had prostate cancer around age 60 but did not have insurance until 65 and ended up with multiple radiation treatments and HT.

Having never seen a PSA go down in the previous 10-14 years, indeed having only seen them go up, I saw mine drop 25%- from 11 some odd to about 8- in the ~ 2 months between diagnosis and RP. Even previous antibiotics did not slow down the rise, plus my biopsy was not unlikely to cause even further rise. I made various DIY interventions during those 2 months(between biopsy and RP) based on things rumored to be helpful while avoiding items rumored to be bad. Did any of this actually have any influence on my PC cells? Impossible to say. Many would say no, and they might be right.

But if a PSA goes down in response to any conventional treatment, it is always considered a good thing. And the one thing we can say with certainty is that mine dropped 25% when it had never dropped before, indeed had never failed to rise before. Any significance thereof, or lack thereof, I will leave it for others to decide.

So, you drastically cut the sugar and your PSA went down without treatment? If you cut the sugar/carbs way back, then most likely you also cut your blood insulin way back, even if your blood sugar dropped very little or not at all. Type 2 diabetics and the high blood insulin and insulin resistance that they by definition possess have worse outcomes with all cancers. As for PC specifically, in one study the patients who had the highest blood insulin and waist to hip ratios(biggest guts, a sign of high insulin) had as much as 8 times worse clinical outcome.

So, is it at least possible that you have turned down your PC growth rate by cutting sugar and thus lowering blood insulin which is produced in response to ingested carbs? In my opinion, no question about it. Can I prove it with RCTs? Nope. But if what you are doing has not hurt and seems to maybe help, will you be sticking with it?

"So, is it at least possible that you have turned down your PC growth rate by cutting sugar and thus lowering blood insulin which is produced in response to ingested carbs? In my opinion, no question about it."

One time, I got a speeding ticket (doing maybe 10 over the limit). I had my plastic jug (the one we are all given post-treatment to urinate in) in the car and told the cop I was speeding because I had to go so bad (which was true - this was about 2-3 months after I was seeded). Having heard them all over his career, and being heartless, he gave me the ticket anyway. I went to court and told the judge the same story. He said I should not have been driving. You can't fight city hall. Anyway, as I was walking out of court a woman stopped me and said she was sorry I had cancer and could be cured with marijuana. She did not say whether or not I had to eat it though.

Hello JNF,

I agree with you on that part, but I have my Dad's example and insurance for self-employed right now that provides real coverage is Obamacare. All supplement or short term plans covers nothing with limited network and pre-existing conditions, do not leave a lot of options. Yes, I would stay on AS if it is not for the insurance.

Serge, what insurance do you have? There is nothing specific about being self-employed that affects health insurance. You would have an individual plan that either complies with the Affordable Care Act or doesn't. There is nothing happening currently in the congress that would change that. There are calls to complete the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, but all calling for the repeal have stated that preexisting conditions should not limit the purchase of insurance. I am not sure I understand your concern that would so impact your treatment choice. However, the choice you have chosen is very effective and will likely be curative with little or no negative side effects. So you should come out well and never have to worry about the PCa.

I assume you have insurance now that is paying for the IGRT and concerned you wont have that in the future, so you didn't pursue AS. Certainly IGRT treatment costs far far more than pursuing AS. Seeing your age you are several years away from Medicare, so that is not a consideration.

I was told my psa was 5.6 by my PCP. We then tested it again almost 2 months later and it dropped to 5.2, and I didn't do a darn thing different. Go figure.

Repeat after me: PSA is not a cancer test. PSA is not a cancer test. PSA is not a cancer test.

PSA tests overall prostate activity. Post treatment, when the prostate has been removed/cooked/frozen or whatever, the only significant activity that can be measured is from (a) the remaining damaged prostate tissue that used to be healthy and (b) stray cancer cells.

PSA can fluctuate for any number of reasons when in an untreated state. A PSA change without treatment can mean a lot of things, but it does not mean that the cancer has gone away. THAT is wishful thinking.

halbert said...
Repeat after me: PSA is not a cancer test. PSA is not a cancer test. PSA is not a cancer test.

PSA tests overall prostate activity. Post treatment, when the prostate has been removed/cooked/frozen or whatever, the only significant activity that can be measured is from (a) the remaining damaged prostate tissue that used to be healthy and (b) stray cancer cells.

PSA can fluctuate for any number of reasons when in an untreated state. A PSA change without treatment can mean a lot of things, but it does not mean that the cancer has gone away. THAT is wishful thinking.

I don't think any one is claiming that. But that is not the same as saying that diet or other interventions can not improve the situation, even the amount or growth rate of PC. I also am not willing to say that a PSA drop without traditional treatment always means that PC has NOT been pushed back or at least slowed.
We don't have much proof either way. But we do have some indications, maybe even some evidence, of possible help other than with traditional treatments. Especially if a man chooses AS, why not look into what else might help or harm? Or, even if he chooses treatment, as long as he avoids interfering with RT by way of excessive anti-oxidants. After all, when it comes to diets, we have to eat something, right? Nothing wrong with trying to eat what MIGHT help, or avoid what might harm, seems to me. Unless there is evidence eating it will actually cause harm.

Thank you for all reply. I am pretty confident I did not have inflammation as I have no symptoms of inflammation. Also PSA was consistent over period of time. In other words if it is due to inflammation then I would have it every time PSA test was taken over period of 2.5 years. I did not take any medication at all. Thank you for reference to information that the drop of PSA can happen without visual reasons.

I understand that PSA is not cancer test.

BillyBob, can you explain to me what do you mean by saying:" he avoids interfering with RT by way of excessive anti-oxidants" Do you mean I should lower number of food that has excessive anti-oxidants while going through RT?

I thought about Lab error, and there is possibility, but very unlikely. In any case my next PSA is scheduled after IGRT.

My PSA dropped from 7.1 in April 2017 to 5.2 just before my IMRT treatment in mid-December '17.

It was the April PSA number that triggered my doctor to refer me to a urologist.

Before the December PSA blood test I took ASA two hours beforehand wondering what would happen, but also because of a really high PSA test previously in early November 2017 when a PSA blood test only five weeks after my biopsy and having ejaculated earlier in the day - my PSA was 10.3.

In my case the PSA numbers 'really' jumped around likely due to some inflammation but also because of GS8 cancer.