Diagnosted with PC but PSA drops without treatment.

halbert said...
BB, actually I'm not disagreeing with you. It just really bothers me when people study their PSA results as if they are the be-all and end-all of what the cancer is doing. It just doesn't work that way, particularly pre-treatment. Post treatment it does have value along those lines. I'm one of those patients who was told that my diagnostic PSA was meaningless--and should be doubled--because I was taking saw palmetto at the time. So my "low normal" PSA of 3.0 at age 56 was actually more like 6+ (definitely something to be concerned with).

OK, good points, valid points.

As most of us here well know, our PSAs go up and down for a variety of reasons all the time, at least when we have prostates. Presumably, as far as the part maybe being caused by PC, that only goes up, pretty much. My point is I guess, in case I was not clear to all folks: Even if you still have your prostate, and your PSA has never gone down except in minute amounts, almost always actually goes up, and you do something thought to be helpful, and in a short period of time, your PSA goes down, it is possible that what you did had an influence on your PSA and even on your PC cells. There is no way to know for sure that it did or it didn't. But if that is the first time in years that the PSA stopped going up and actually went down, it is more than reasonable to say that it is definitely possible it was what you did that caused it.

Now, just like some medications, whatever you did might lower PSA without doing anything to your PC cells. Sort of like how some medications treat the symptoms without really going anything much to treat the cause. If it shrinks your prostate, or lowers your testosterone, it will probably lower your PSA but not do much against the cancer cells. Although, lowering testosterone by way of medicine seems to set them back some for sure. So, we really can't say that whatever we did failed to hurt the cancer cells. Just no way to know-especially in the early stages- without a biopsy, and even the biopsy can miss cancer cells.

In Ornish's trial of his diet with 93 men on AS, PSAs went down in the diet group and up in the control group. And none in the diet group needed more treatment due to PSA increase or tumor growth per MRI imaging vs 6 who did in the control group. Blood taken from the experimental group dripped on PC cells ( in a Petri dish) inhibited growth 8 times more than the control group. (70% vs 9% ) This study was diet and some lifestyle changes. It needs to be repeated of course on a larger scale. But if I did this and my PSA went down, I would feel encouraged. Also, if I felt inclined to do this sort of diet, I would not wait around for the follow up studies to be checking out the possibilities. If it was a drug or treatment with possible severe SEs, and I had no more proof than that, well I would probably wait for more evidence of help. But for a diet that is likely to have only positive SEs(assuming I could stand to do it, which is a big IF), why the heck not?
/www.ornish.com/wp-content/uploads/Intensive_Lifestyle_Changes_and_Prostate_Cancer.pdf

SergeFL said...
Thank you for your inputs BB. It was my wife initiative for diet and I was thinking like most people on this forum and view diet as overall health and immune system boost for possible treatment down the road. I lost around 35 Lbs in the matter of 3 month of changing my life style as described in chapter 10 of "Prostate Cancer: A New Approach to Treatment and Healing" book. I thought that the best what life style change can do is kind freeze low risk cancer at current state and was expecting my PSA to be around 2.5-2.7 as I had it for couple recent years. When I received this information from my RO doctor it puzzled me. I guess it is unlikely to get in-depth explanation but it is good to know that it possible to happen. Unfortunately, I can not continue on this path as I started treatment already. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and opinions.

You are welcome. Good luck with your treatment. I have little doubt it will cure you, you are very low risk to start with. One thing about dietary approaches( and maybe also supplements ): if you can find a diet that is supposed to help, it is very unlikely to hurt and might indeed help, even if we can't prove it yet. But the other thing about a dietary approach: it is also very likely to help in a wide variety of other areas. Conversely, the thing about prescription medicines or treatments: so often one thing is fixed at the cost of something else broken. As well as sometimes(not always) the symptom is treated(for example: high blood sugars) while the underlying cause is ignored. But with dietary changes(assuming you find what actually works), rather than unwanted SEs, you are more likely to have a variety of wanted SEs, as over all health is benefited.

You say among several changes, you drastically decreased sugar and dropped 35 lbs? Then most likely you also improved your blood sugar and A1C some what, as well as your triglycerides and several other blood chemistry measurements. But even if your blood sugar only showed slight improvement, it is almost guaranteed that you drastically lowered your fasting and average daily levels of blood insulin. That almost goes hand in hand with the weight loss, especially if a lot of that weight loss showed up in a reduced spare tire. Reduction of abdominal fat. Some authorities have claimed that high insulin levels can be diagnosed simply by eyeballing the old bowling ball. A classic syndrome that we see everywhere these days, an otherwise fairly skinny man who looks like he is pregnant. Some have said that regardless of blood sugar being lower than diabetic levels, that spare tire/bowling ball almost always means high blood insulin levels are being produced by the body in order to keep the blood sugar level below diabetic levels.

And the high insulin levels are associated strongly with almost every disease process, the most obvious one being type II diabetes. But also almost always found with metabolic syndrome, hi blood pressure, hardened arteries, much worse prognosis with virtually all cancers, peripheral neuropathy, etc. In other words all the diseases normally associated with that primary disease, type II diabetes, a disease of high insulin and insulin resistance.

The good news is that blood insulin levels are easily controlled with dietary intervention. Specifically reducing the amount of net carbohydrates(carbohydrate minus fiber) eaten daily, and/or intermittent fasting.(And keep in mind that vegan and vegetarian diets can be quite low on the net carbohydrate scale, depending on whether vegetables or pasta is emphasized) No medication is required to achieve this goal. Our docs don't often measure blood insulin. Too bad. I have felt for a long time that this problem is at the root of so many other health problems.

And I am willing to bet a dollar that you have, without realizing it, lowered your blood insulin levels. And have received all the benefits there of.



/www.webmd.com/heart/metabolic-syndrome/metabolic-syndrome-what-is-it#1

Somebody said...
Although the first formal definition of metabolic syndrome entered medical textbooks not so long ago (1998), it is as widespread as pimples and the common cold . According to the American Heart Association, 47 million Americans have it. That's almost a staggering one out of every six people................................ So what is this mysterious syndrome -- which also goes by the scary-sounding name Syndrome X -- and should you be worried about it?
Understanding Metabolic Syndrome

Metabolic syndrome is not a disease in itself. Instead, it's a group of risk factors -- high blood pressure, high blood sugar, unhealthy cholesterol levels, and abdominal fat.

Obviously, having any one of these risk factors isn't good. But when they're combined, they set the stage for serious problems. These risk factors double your risk of blood vessel and heart disease, which can lead to heart attacks and strokes. They increase your risk of diabetes by five times.

The good news is that metabolic syndrome can be controlled, largely with changes to your lifestyle.
Risk Factors for Metabolic Syndrome

According to the American Heart Association and the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, there are five risk factors that make up metabolic syndrome.:
1: large waist size
2:High triglycerides( Either 150 mg/dL or higher OR using a cholesterol medicine)
3:low HDL( so called good cholesterol) OR Using a cholesterol medicine
4:high blood pressure( Either having > 130/85 OR Using a high blood pressure medicine! )
5:High fasting glucose, 100 or greater

To be diagnosed with metabolic syndrome, you would have at least three of these risk factors........

What Causes Metabolic Syndrome?

Experts aren't sure why metabolic syndrome develops. It's a collection of risk factors, not a single disease. So it probably has many different causes. Some risk factors are:

1:Insulin resistance. Insulin is a hormone that helps your body use glucose -- a simple sugar made from the food you eat -- as energy. In people with insulin resistance, the insulin doesn't work as well, so your body keeps making more and more of it to cope with the rising level of glucose. Eventually, this can lead to diabetes. Insulin resistance is closely connected to having excess weight in the belly.
2:Obesity -- especially abdominal obesity. Experts say that metabolic syndrome is becoming more common because of rising obesity rates. In addition, having extra fat in the belly -- as opposed to elsewhere in the body -- seems to increase your risk.............

(several other risk factors listed, but you can see which two are at the top of the list) So 35 lbs gone? with much lower sugar intake? Keep it up brother, keep doing whatever works! Very unlikely to hurt, and quite likely to help just about EVERYTHING.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 10/2/2018 11:28:20 AM (GMT-6)

Thank you for additional reply.

BB, PC was not the only reason why I changed life style in terms of different diet. Yes, I was overweight but in relatively good health never go to a doctor unless I have to and I did not have many cases. I had slightly high cholesterol level, but all other blood work numbers, including sugar level and PSA, were always within limits. My main concern was to boost immune system and I have some hip problem due to age and extra weight. Also spent tons of moneys on dentist and sugar is not good for your teeth.

Michael_T
Insurance is big decision factor in forcing treatment option. I don't think Obamacare will change very drastically next year, but it is so unstable and unpredictable so it does not make any sense to make long term AS program plans because insurance company I have now may withdraw participation option and other companies that stayed in the pool have very limited network for my area, where most treatment centers or doctors do not accept it. Yes, you may go to emergency room but need to wait long time for appointments and be forced to go to the treatment centers that do not specialize in PC but rather "do it all" approach.