Effects of Extreme Carb Depletion on PC Cell Growth

Oh darn, I thought from the title that maybe there was finally a study- pro or con- on "Effects of Extreme Carb Depletion on PC Cell Growth".

There is another fairly recent thread going on covering this general subject, titled "Keto" I believe. It starts out as a personal testimony for some benefits other than weight loss by a member who has been eating that way, and a couple of others who chime in with similar benefits, and then discussions of some variations on the same theme.

Re: your closing question: "A long as I use a carbohydrate depleting diet as I have in the past, as a fat loss TOOL, and a short term correction, (up to 16 weeks MAX) then perhaps it won't be harmful?".

No, IMO, might even be quite helpful, and why only 16 weeks max? And I don't personally see the need to limit fats, carbs are what needs limiting.

Although, harmful or helpful for what, exactly? Like you said, we have few to zero studies on the relationship of carbs to PC, or probably other cancers. What we do have studies on is a 2-8 times association between PC and blood insulin levels or blood insulin combine with gut size. The higher of either, the stronger the association between PC, especially advanced PC, and insulin and/or waistline. The other association we have is between insulin injecting diabetics and worse outcomes for all cancers, including PC, as well as a host of other diseases.

So, considering the above, PC specific studies or not, it seems reasonable to strive for a lower blood insulin level and smaller waistline. And Atkins, Keto, South Beach, the Zone, Sugar Busters, intermittent fasting or the ones you mention (I assume), what is the common denominator among all of the variations in approach? Lower carbs leading to lower blood insulin. That is the main specific that has various health benefits in all of them. Chronically high blood insulin is always a bad thing for a whole bunch of different diseases. If your gut shrinks from too large of a number, that is almost always good for a bunch of health issues. A large gut and high blood insulin go together like horse and carriage.

So will your lower carb approach for 16 weeks or for a life time be harmful for your PC? I seriously doubt it, though who knows about specific details of your diet, plus no(or few) studies. But I doubt that the lowering of carbs, even to zero for a while, will cause problems with your PC. Will it help? Quite possibly, but who knows? No studies re: PC. Will it help with a basket full of other health issues? Almost certainly. Will it greatly reduce your odds of ever becoming an insulin injecting T2D, those folks whose PC does much worse? Absolutely!

One caveat: low carb AND low fat can be a tough row to hoe, IMO. And making up for the lack of those two with increased protein might work against you when it comes to fighting cancer. Another long story, but in general excess protein is thought by some to be a problem with cancers. So it might be wise not to go to gung ho on the protein.

PDA, thanks for the interesting link. Are you still doing some intermittent fasting? I noticed this in the 1st paragraph: "Thus, the rationale in providing a fat-rich, low-carbohydrate diet in cancer therapy is to reduce circulating glucose levels and induce ketosis such that cancer cells are starved of energy while normal cells adapt their metabolism to use ketone bodies and survive. Furthermore, by reducing blood glucose also levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor, which are important drivers of cancer cell proliferation, drop.".

The "starving" of PC cells by lowering glucose has been questioned here in the past, even if it might help against other cancers. However, I think the insulin as a growth factor thing applies to all cancers.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/18/2019 10:35:24 AM (GMT-6)

Thanks PDA and BillyBob!
The PSMF/Rapid Fat Loss diet I mentioned was created by Lyle McDonald for competitive bodybuilders who wanted to burn off that last bit of fat yet maintain muscle before shows.
http://www.ironmagazine.com/ebooks/The_Rapid_Fat_Loss_Handbook.pdf
While not everyone is a bodybuilder, obviously, the diet is a much cleaner version with more stringent guidelines. I refer to it as my "lean and green" diet, lol. Presently, all of my original dietetic rules still apply. No processed foods, no eating out, the only meat or dairy allowed will be fish and eggs, but only for the duration of the reduction diet....then back to a more balanced pescatarian diet.
I have since read that glycogen depletion and/or ketosis are actually beneficial in "starving" most forms of cancer, since nearly all cancer cells are fueled by glycogen, and unable to use ketone bodies as a fuel source. Of course, prostate cancer, due to its indolent nature, was not impacted quite as much....or studied as closely.
Since I am having to wait so long to find what my post-op PSA results are, and to be cleared by my Doc to return to normal activities, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to kill myself in the meantime, lol. I just want to get back to the gym, lift some weight and lose all of this FAT.

Mattam: the report that I saw specifically said to eat no more than 2 eggs a day. (unless, I suppose, they are ostrich eggs)

Is there a definitive link between egg consumption and serum cholesterol/LDL/HDL/Triglicerides?

halbert said...
Mattam: the report that I saw specifically said to eat no more than 2 eggs a day. (unless, I suppose, they are ostrich eggs)

Is there a definitive link between egg consumption and serum cholesterol/LDL/HDL/Triglicerides?

I don't know of a definitive study of eggs specifically vs those parameters. But FWIW(not much I realize), and just for fun, I predict the following for a person who went on an all egg diet:
1: Total and LDL would increase, probably by a fairly small amount. But, the LDL might also change to the "light, fluffy" kind that some claim is protective, vs the small, dense kind that is harmful. Maybe.
2: HDL would likely increase by as much or more than LDL does.
3: Triglycerides would plummet.
4: Probably, blood sugar would improve
5: Probably, blood insulin would drop a whole lot.

All of the above have been documented in more than one clinical trial I have linked to here before, but not specifically for eggs, but comparing high fat, low carb diets - sometimes in diabetics - to the more typical low fat, higher carb diets. But obviously, an all( or mostly) egg diet would be about as low carb and high fat as you could get.

None of the above would likely apply to adding more eggs to a high carb diet, except maybe the increase of LDL. Unless adding the eggs- and getting fuller on them- also resulted in a significant reduction in carbs. IMO.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/20/2019 9:04:36 PM (GMT-6)

halbert said...
My personal experimentation for the last month or so:

Get my total carbs down to approx 100 grams per day. Threw out the breakfast cereal, now eating eggs for breakfast, along with a container of low sugar yogurt.

Lunch is a mixed green salad with a few slices of chopped up deli ham.

Dinner varies, but cut out pasta, no more than 2 potatoes a week, etc.

Results: I've lost about 10 lbs. My "love handles" are going away. GERD is way down in frequency and severity. Still occasional joint aches, but not as much or as often. Haven't had any blood work yet to check lipids or glucose (I was running right at 100 on fasting glucose, been on Statins forever for lipids)

If you stick with this- a mild low carb approach- for a while, I will be very interested in seeing your next lab results. I wish I could see them right now to see how that lines up with your shrinking love handles, etc.

ldog said...
I wrote about my pre-radiation diet a while back. Pretty much zero carbs, got rid of all red meat, no sugar except a little in my coffee. Pretty much changed my diet over night, but I was never heavy or un-fit. 6-3, 187, work out 4 days a week, etc. Well after 6 or 7 months I wilted away to nothing. I'm sure Casodex played a part as I lost muscle mass. But losing 18 lbs. was crazy on my frame. Had an 8 pack again, "BUT", no one said I looked healthy. Cloths did not fit right and my face looked sunken. Stress I'm sure was a part of that. So I pretty much gave up that crazy-arse diet. I now eat red meat once, maybe twice a week, but its all grass fed. I did not change my sugar intake, but I will now eat a desert at a restaurant once in a while. I eat cereal here and there, and have increased my carb intake. I'm not as stressed anymore either. I'm now 181 and feel frickn great. Screw eating like a squirrel, its not for me.
Good luck all

IMO, It is really hard to go low carb AND low fat and protein, except maybe during intermittent fasting, where you are zero everything for a limited period of time. Our daughter lost 40 lbs on Atkins with some intermittent fasting, and she looks fantastic. She looks young and healthy. And her lab values are to drool for. If I low carb it, I like to get plenty of fat and at least adequate protein. Which is rarely eating like a squirrel. I'm with you on not doing that.

DaMayor said...
I went 16 weeks eating less than 20g of carbohydrate and 20g of fat from whole foods only. After the first two weeks, I enjoyed a "free meal" once a week, during which I ate something higher in fat and calories, or a single serving of something higher in carbs.....this is not to be confused with a "re-feed", which is a totally misunderstood and abused concept. In order to do this, you MUST LOVE chicken breast and tuna, you must weigh your food and log your macronutrients, and limit workouts to weight training and limited cardio.
This time around, I'm using the same 20c/20f parameters, but without eating dairy products (other than eggs, sue me) processed or high sodium foods.....so this is going to be very hard. But I need results quickly, and plan to follow a "lean and green" diet afterwards. It's a lot like quitting smoking. Once you get your head wrapped around it and start seeing results, and the diet depletes those cravings/appetite, its just a matter of discipline.

I will hopefully be fully motivated to follow this insane regimen after my appointment tomorrow morning....hoping for .00000000 PSA. Although my plan should remain the same.....keep on truckin'.

So, did you get that bunch of zeros on your PSA reading? I hope so!

Net (carb minus fiber) 20 gm of carb per day = 80 calories. 20 gm of fat = 180 calories, total 260 cal/day. Wow, that is some serious low cal, unless you make it up with a several hundred gm of protein, which would get you another 1200 calories or so( 400 cal per 100 gm protein). Which will certainly work for weight loss, but some folks raise questions about high protein(which is what, anything over 100 gm/day? 80? higher?) and cancer. Something about mTor or something like that, don't know if there is any proof or not.

But, keep us posted on how that does for you, and exactly how you did it!

searchinginla said...
I was going to say the same thing. I'm on a MD supervised low carb - low cal diet right now (to get better blood sugar levels as well as bring my A1C reading down), but my daily doses are 1670 cals and 200 grams of carbs. I lost 15 lbs in almost two months and still going strong. I can't imagine how to function on 20 grams of carbs.

(I also work out for an hour every day of the week and burn approximately 600 - 800 calories extra per day by doing so).

Probably way easier than you imagine, especially if getting adequate amounts of fat and to a lessor degree protein(IOW, low carb, but not low cal or anything else). Because only 20 gm a day of carb(or zero, perhaps while while fasting), when your body is used to burning 200-400 gm/day for energy, will cause your body to quickly(1 to 3 days) burn up all stored forms of sugar, and as soon as none are available for energy, the switch is throw into fat burn mode. You are now effectively on an IV drip of all day fat for energy, taken from the fat stores as needed. People frequently report the disappearance of hunger and cravings- or at least a big improvement- once the state of ketosis is reached. It also kicks but when it comes to blood sugars, A1C, and blood insulin. As many studies have shown.

But hey, you are proof that even cutting to 200 gm/day can be a big help. Good for you! Beats injecting insulin!

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/29/2019 12:57:21 PM (GMT-6)

One of the things people miss is that this isn't a high protein diet. I've maintained the same protein intake.

and I agree cholesterol gets way too much attention and isn't a reliable measure of things being wrong.
Andrew