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Posted 12/14/2019 10:55 PM (GMT 0)
I remember well the tragic case of Steve Jobs, who listened to the witch doctors until it was too late. All these crazy conspiracy theories of magic cures for all kinds of cancer make me sick, and make me angry.
Posted 12/15/2019 12:43 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks again for all of the replies. This has turned out to be a very good thread, but please read my original post. I was asking about alternative treatments, not telling what I was planning to do. Statements like "PROVEN options for Phil that he should probably consider ASAP" is freakout mode. I've been battling cancer now for nearly 7 years, and the one thing the doctors at MD Anderson told me, is that my cancer is slow growing, you have time to think about your treatment options. That is the reason for this thread.

The article that I posted a link to, (probably need to copy and paste), stated that the "treatment should not be worse than the disease", and "given that the median time to develop distant metastasis after PSA recurrence, without any treatment, is approximately 8 years". There is no need to freakout, and do something ASAP! That is the message that fellow cancer survivors should stress to one another.

In the words from logoslidat's signature, "gonna live til I die...not the reverse", is the best advice I have received from this forum.

Thanks again for the replies.

Phil
Posted 12/15/2019 1:26 AM (GMT 0)
"I don't think a laundry list of institutions that use alternative treatments for various ailments is particularly helpful."
====
Why in the heck not?????? A moderator of a "health" website who's main purpose is to help people is saying that we should ignore lead edge research from WORLD CLASS hospitals? I honestly hope I completely misunderstand what you are saying there.

After 20 years of blood tests, every 3 to 6 months. Myself and 3 of my doctors know beyond any kind of doubt that a handful of supplements, actually 2 handfuls, can cut my PSA in half and lower my LDL cholesterol from 185 to 101. Luckily as my uro says "often what is good for the heart is also good for the prostate." Its very easy to slack off on two hand fulls of supplements so in twenty years I've proven the above, on the low end, about 25 times. I'll gladly send $100.00 to anyone who can find a study that says I can achieve those numbers without drugs. I know you cant find them because there aren't any. I didn't randomly pick what I take, I've read the research. Statins will also lower my LDL from 185 to 101 but I cant take them. There is lot of dispute about cholesterol but I think 185 LDL is a death sentence.
NO!!!!! I have not yet been diagnosed with cancer although my Johns Hopkins uro thinks its inevitable. I do not. If I back off the supplements my PSA will jump to about 17. And No I dont have 20 year long Prostatitis.

I know this is just pizzing into the wind but I beg people here to not say its all fake. Its really not. I agree 100%, a large portion of it is quackery but an equally large portion is not. Just read the research... please. It may help.
Posted 12/15/2019 1:59 AM (GMT 0)
NotBubba,

Ok. I hear you. And, I agree, diet (and I include supplements in diet) can have many benefits in many ways. No problem. Your experience is certainly interesting--and I'm sure you're not the only one. I throw out a massive however: You don't have PC (at least not measureably). For those who DO, especially those who do at the ugly end, the G8/9/10 guys, doing what you're doing and giving up on the standard treatments is very, very risky. Why? Because (as far as I know) there isn't any experience out there where it creates a positive outcome for the long haul.

IMO, there is a wide range of things that fall under "alternative medicine". Nutrition/supplements (some of them) seem to have overall health benefits--which could include helping with cancer remission. The problem comes with some of the other alternative that are out there that, IMO again, need to be addressed based on PT Barnum's "there is a sucker born every minute". The horror stories are out there, they are well known, and those are the ones that should be avoided at all costs. I wish there was a more specific language possible, perhaps, than just using the term "alternative medicine".
Posted 12/15/2019 2:33 AM (GMT 0)
NotBubba,
Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see what statins or cholesterol have to do with PCA, or for that mater with alternative treatments. I've been on statins for 15 or more years and my cholesterol - total, LDL, HDL etc. are all exactly where they are supposed to be thanks to this medical treatment. But what does that have to do with prostate cancer? And what does prescribed Lovistatin controlling my cholesterol have to do with alternative medicine?
Jim
Posted 12/15/2019 3:49 AM (GMT 0)

halbert said...
i wish there was a more specific language possible, perhaps, than just using the term "alternative medicine".

There is. Integrative medicine.
From the Mayo Clinic website.... “
“Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) is the popular name for health care practices that traditionally have not been part of conventional medicine. In many cases, as evidence of efficacy and safety grows, these therapies are being combined with conventional medicine.

Thus, the term alternative has been dropped and replaced with newer terms, such as complementary and integrative medicine, integrative medicine and health, or just integrative medicine.”
https:// https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/complementary-alternative-medicine/about/pac-20393581

If the conversation were focused on Integrative Medicine, it would probably be more constructive.
More important, it seems to me, that integrative medicine is what the original poster is looking at, not Laetrile, or some other nonsense. But the thread has been taken of course, by the “alternative medicine debate”
Posted 12/15/2019 11:17 AM (GMT 0)
According to Dr. David Gorski, integrative medicine is pseudoscience, in other words quackery. In Dr. Gorski's view Mayo, and other facilities that integrate into their treatment, have been hoodwinked. A recent post by Dr. Gorski: "Thomas Jefferson University goes full quack with a department of 'integrative medicine'" https://respectfulinsolence.com/2019/02/27/thomas-jefferson-university-goes-quack/

Gorski's CV: "DAVID H. GORSKI, MD, PhD, FACS is a surgical oncologist at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute specializing in breast cancer surgery, where he also serves as the Medical Director of the Alexander J. Walt Comprehensive Breast Center, Professor of Surgery and Oncology at the Wayne State University School of Medicine, and faculty of the Graduate Program in Cancer Biology. An investigator whose primary research interests include the role of glutamate receptors in promoting the growth and metastasis of breast cancer, Dr. Gorski also runs an active research laboratory and has recently taken an active interest in the problems of breast cancer overdiagnosis and overtreatment. His research has been funded by the NIH, the Department of Defense, the Conquer Cancer Foundation of ASCO, and others, and been published in prestigious journals such as Cancer Research, Clinical Cancer Research, Blood, Nature Reviews Cancer, and Nature. Additionally, he has served as co-director of the Michigan Breast Oncology Quality Initiative (MiBOQI), a statewide quality consortium dedicated to improving the care of patients with breast cancer in Michigan." https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/editorial-staff/david-h-gorski-md-phd-managing-editor/
Posted 12/15/2019 11:37 AM (GMT 0)

Bohemond said...
NotBubba,
Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see what statins or cholesterol have to do with PCA, or for that mater with alternative treatments. I've been on statins for 15 or more years and my cholesterol - total, LDL, HDL etc. are all exactly where they are supposed to be thanks to this medical treatment. But what does that have to do with prostate cancer? And what does prescribed Lovistatin controlling my cholesterol have to do with alternative medicine?
Jim

It has nothing to do with PCa.

Lovistatin works great.
Posted 12/15/2019 11:40 AM (GMT 0)

NotBubba said...
"I don't think a laundry list of institutions that use alternative treatments for various ailments is particularly helpful."
====
Why in the heck not?????? A moderator of a "health" website who's main purpose is to help people is saying that we should ignore lead edge research from WORLD CLASS hospitals? I honestly hope I completely misunderstand what you are saying there.

After 20 years of blood tests, every 3 to 6 months. Myself and 3 of my doctors know beyond any kind of doubt that a handful of supplements, actually 2 handfuls, can cut my PSA in half and lower my LDL cholesterol from 185 to 101. Luckily as my uro says "often what is good for the heart is also good for the prostate." Its very easy to slack off on two hand fulls of supplements so in twenty years I've proven the above, on the low end, about 25 times. I'll gladly send $100.00 to anyone who can find a study that says I can achieve those numbers without drugs. I know you cant find them because there aren't any. I didn't randomly pick what I take, I've read the research. Statins will also lower my LDL from 185 to 101 but I cant take them. There is lot of dispute about cholesterol but I think 185 LDL is a death sentence.
NO!!!!! I have not yet been diagnosed with cancer although my Johns Hopkins uro thinks its inevitable. I do not. If I back off the supplements my PSA will jump to about 17. And No I dont have 20 year long Prostatitis.

I know this is just pizzing into the wind but I beg people here to not say its all fake. Its really not. I agree 100%, a large portion of it is quackery but an equally large portion is not. Just read the research... please. It may help.

We don't want a list of them because they're frauds. There is no alternative treatment for prostate cancer. It is dangerous to suggest there is. It is harmful to men, and to their families. It offers false hope.

I'm curious about your PCa status. If I am reading this right you've never been diagnosed with it. Begs the question what exactly are you doing here?
Posted 12/15/2019 1:51 PM (GMT 0)
What exactly are you doing here?
===
Thats a fair and good question. I came here like many others, terrified with a rapidly rising PSA. I've had 1 negative biopsy. I go to the Uro every 3 or 6 months. In fact I go Friday and like many others I'm worried about this upcoming PSA test. Any blip of any kind and Doc wants to schedule me for a saturation biopsy. The only thing I have going for me is 2 positive 4k score tests. I'm going to ask him again why the 4k score isn't good enough. Doc is very cautious which is good.

I brought up the cholesterol because its on topic. I can get Statin results without Statins - the exact same numbers. There is no study that says this is possible, only research, but my GP doc is happy to let me do it because she sees the results. I would MUCH rather take 1 statin pill instead of a bunch of supplements, its much easier. I dont hate drugs, but I cant take statins, I get muscle pain. Not just pain, my muscles lock up. There is one I can take without problems, Livalo, but my insurance doesn't want to pay for that one.

I'm not at all suggesting alternative medicine can cure cancer. But I do read a lot of research about things that cause cancer cell Apoptosis. Maybe, just maybe, thats whats delaying my saturation biopsy. I know, extremely small chance but this should be an import topic that should be allowed to be discussed here without a bunch of name calling. All fake helps no one here. Not everyone is doing great. Contrary to the overwhelming opinion here, things like eating a pomegranate does not lead to taking latrille but it comes up every single time.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4213780/
Since almost 50% of existing medicine is derived from plants, it is clear that natural sources, especially plants can be investigated for effective medicines in cancer treatment. Discord of medicines from natural compounds including plants had been time-consuming procedure in past. However, nowadays finding active complexes of plant has been accelerated by using >>>modern techniques<<<. This has resulted in herbal plants recycle. Rebirth of drugs with herbal derivations specially to treat cancer and immunologic and CNS diseases is highly considerable. >>>>Now more than 60 herbal complexes are being studied as anti-cancer medicine<<<<.

I know, just pizzing into the wind...

Post Edited (NotBubba) : 12/15/2019 7:20:27 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/15/2019 3:09 PM (GMT 0)
My wife says I have been eating that birch bark bread and what good did it do me? Lol just had to lighten up this post a little. 😊 I used turmeric, flax seed, cinnamon, made fruit smoothies, drank pomegranate juice, yogurt, used honey on my birch bark bread, ate lots of oatmeal yeppers felt pretty good still got cancer? I was married to a native american gal for 20+ years and she used lots of natural plants for lots of different things which worked very good. I am thankful for natural treatments and I am also thankful for our scientists and people that devote their lives to medicine, biotechnology and pharmacology so we can also have access to these drugs! Again I believe it's a balance in not only medicine but all of life enjoy all the different foods in moderation, use supplements if you believe they are helping just don't overdue it. I take a multivitamin and daily aspirin. Does it do any good? Who knows? Blood work usually comes back pretty good always have had high cholesterol but don't worry about it. I'm glad I was treated at a hospital that is looking at alternative medicines and drugs but am also glad that every precaution is being taken. Larry
Posted 12/24/2019 4:58 PM (GMT 0)
It is harmful to men, and to their families. It offers false hope.
=====
So hope is a bad thing? Thats a good one.
Some choose to fight with everything they have some choose to do nothing. Its and individuals choice, and most certainly not yours.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20467303
CONCLUSIONS:
These data suggest that hope is an important resource for oncology patients that impacts their quality of life.
IMPLICATIONS FOR PRACTICE:
Hope may be an important coping mechanism that clinicians need to consider when they try to help patients reduce the psychological distress associated with cancer and its treatment.
Posted 12/24/2019 10:42 PM (GMT 0)

NotBubba said...
It is harmful to men, and to their families. It offers false hope.
=====
So hope is a bad thing? Thats a good one.
Some choose to fight with everything they have some choose to do nothing. Its and individuals choice, and most certainly not yours.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20467303
CONCLUSIONS:
These data suggest that hope is an important resource for oncology patients that impacts their quality of life.
IMPLICATIONS FOR PRACTICE:
Hope may be an important coping mechanism that clinicians need to consider when they try to help patients reduce the psychological distress associated with cancer and its treatment.

Hope, some would argue, is what this forum is all about. It's what many/most urologists, radiologists and oncologists are trying to encourage when they claim our PCa is "cured", which is just wishful thinking. It's also what motivates much of the rosely advice posted. All well meaning, but usually not based on provable facts, and that is, IMO, OK.

Without hope, the future can be abysmal. Much of what the medical profession uses was at one point alternative treatments, and I believe major future cancer breakthroughs will come from outside-the-box thinking. Much of the more traditional prostate cancer research and experimentation hasn't yielded unequivocal answers or significant results. Maybe new and nontraditional methods would help.

NotBubba...swimming upstream is hard, unpopular, courageous, and potentially very valuable.

Enough of my wishful thinking and hope. I gotta go get ready for Santa with the grandkids smile
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