Vaccine Poll - Late April

Jim, there are many scientific reports that show the antibodies from the disease are more effective than the vaccine. Many doctors and scientists recommend that people who have had the disease should not get the vaccine.

And many studies including from the CDC show that the masks available to us are not effective at stopping the spread or airborne virus like the flu and colds. Numerous reports show that most everyone that became sick wore their masks diligently. It is very interesting that the states with the tightest mandates on closures and masks have done no better than the more open states that did not have mask mandates or as strict as business closures. In fact several states like New York and New Jersey have per capita death counts that rival the world’s worst.

And I don’t think that Jerry and Aleph are anti-vaxers at all. I am sure they have some history of accepting various vaccines throughout their lifetime. And I certainly hope no one here would use the term as a negative epithet toward them or anyone else. They are raising sound concerns over a vaccine that has not been subjected to the normal rigors and has not even applied for FDA approval, let alone received it.

It is fact that the mRNA method was unsuccessful for more than a decade to be a safe corona virus vaccine. In animal trials when vaccinated subjects were re-infected with the disease it caused an extreme immune response called cytokine storm that killed the subjects. Will this happen next year or the year after when another surge of the virus occurs? Traditional Long term trials would have informed us. But now we will just have to wait and see what happens. Hopefully nothing. For these and other reasons, several of our doctors advised us to wait for the J&J vaccine, as did my research scientist son.

So if you are vaccinated and follow the science you can remove the mask and rest assured the vaccine will protect you. Jerry and Aleph can not hurt you by being unvaccinated. It is unlikely that they will infect each other. And it has been nearly 18 months that we have had this pandemic and neither has become sick from it during the first, second and third surges. Something has worked well for them and I can not criticize their position or action. And I appreciate their calm candor and the self control that our members are showing in the thread enabling an open honest discussion of a very uncertain and controversial topic. After all, none of us are experts on this novel coronavirus.

Mattam, the ADT we take, Lupron, was patented in 1973 and FDA approved in 1985. A twelve year span of trials. A bit different then the actual experience of the COVID vaccines. Comparing the two is definitely a false equivalent.

JNF said...
Mattam, the ADT we take, Lupron, was patented in 1973 and FDA approved in 1985. A twelve year span of trials. A bit different then the actual experience of the COVID vaccines. Comparing the two is definitely a false equivalent.

yeah and we know ADT has no adverse effect on our health. i'll take another pair of covid shots, please ;-)

Jim, I did rely on my immune system and prudent activity management for nearly 18 months and thankfully it worked. Thankfully relying on your immune system worked for you and most others, as well. After my vaccination I will continue to rely on my immune system to protect me from the virus. That is exactly how it works. If, in the unlikely event my vaccinated immune system doesn’t protect me then I will rely on therapeutics to halo. That is how it works. Just as it does for you and most others. Unfortunately, for many it has not. No one wants to see sickness and death whether is from a novel corona virus, the yearly flu, heart disease, cancer, unintended events or even lifestyle choices.

Personally, I think it is terrible to say that Jerry and Aleph are “riding the backs” of anyone. And I certainly don’t think that taking the vaccine elevates a person’s worth to society. We shouldn’t judge a person by their vaccination status. Recent reports are that barely 50% of the employees at NIH and FDA are fully vaccinated. Why? They are riding on you back? Are you reaching out to them to get vaccinated? Even Fauci, when asked, said they can’t be forced to get vaccinated as it is their personal choice. Thankfully he didn’t call them anti-vaxers or threaten to ostracize them.

As for Mumbo quoting Dr. Fauci, we all know Dr. Fauci has taken both sides of every issue and at best has been confusing. But it is easy to cherry pick with him because he has something for everyone if you look closely. There are numerous reports by actual scientists and medical practitioners (Dr. Fauci is neither) that indicate previously infected people are protected and that the vaccine is not yet necessary. Frontline doctors have taken either side. Some say to vaccinate, some say not. I think the smart ones say, let’s,consider the infection you had, let’s take an antibody test, let’s consider your age and risk factors and then decide. Let’s determine the level of protection your infection provided before we decide to give you a shot that you may not need. The CDC recommends the vaccination for previously infected people, but that is to be expected. The current knowledge is that neither previous infection nor the vaccine is expected to provide long term protection. So it is generally expected that we will need have an annual injection. We don’t know how long either protection is viable as it is still too early in dealing with this virus. I have not seen any information regarding follow up on the early participants in the trials that are approaching their anniversary of getting the shot. Will they be tested for antibodies to see how long lasting the vaccine is? I would hope that such practice and the ensuing data would be part of the requests for FDA approval as it will guide the long term use of the vaccines and expected future practice.

I understand all about the FDA Emergency Use and am all for that. I am very supportive of the Operation Warp Speed and the pharmaceutical companies role in the development and production. I am aware of the applications for full FDA approval. Time will tell how that goes. But until that all occurs, it remains that we are in a unique situation where we are using a mass vaccination of a method never before used that was not subjected to the normal rigors of the highly vaunted FDA traditional method. I am hopeful that all will work well and that this becomes an effective breakthrough for future vaccination development. However, for those that do not share that current confidence, I can not fault them. Remember when Dr. Fauci directly contradicted the President saying it would be at least 2-3 years to get to a vaccine due to the FDA rigors that simply would not be compromised? So much for that. Is there any wonder why many very intelligent, well educated reasonable and open people question the situation? Like Jerry and Aleph?

As in most things, only time will tell. Thankfully we are learning more on a daily basis about the virus and disease it can cause. With time we will learn more about the long term efficacy and any adverse effects of the vaccination and how it might need to be altered as the virus mutates. Again, open and calm discussion should be welcomed and appreciated on this forum. Thanks for the good work of you and the other moderators.

alephnull said...
...
I do have a problem with the vaccination schedule for children. Should children be vaccinated, yes. But not at the incredibly high rate that they are. Children have very strong immune systems, and to a great extent it should be allowed to work and become stronger. I was a military brat, so I got immunized for some things, and that's fine. But I've never had the MMR, and never contracted mumps. But I did get measles at 19, I was over it in a day or so.

Vaccinations for many diseases used to be suggested only for the elderly, one's with comprised health, sometimes babies. Why?? Because doctors knew and trusted our immune systems.

On the contrary, vaccines put the immune system to work and challenge it-- in fact, they rely on the immune system to work at all! You have all the protection of having had the disease (often much more), but without the complications (including death) of going through the illness. Vaccines rely on the fact that our immune system can't tell the vaccine from the disease.

"A single measles outbreak cost one U.S. county $3.4 million, a new government study estimates, underscoring the societal burden of inadequate vaccination rates." Driven by Anti-Vaxxers, Measles Outbreaks Cost Everyone Money

We elderly are offered high-potency flu shots (about 3x the dose) because our immune systems are generally not working as well as when we were children.

The logic behind "children should play in the dirt and not use antibacterial soaps" doesn't hold for vaccines.

Djin

I'm just waiting for a mod to lock out his own postings...ban himself and be done with it...recuse...don't excuse...but silly me...I always have expected too much of others...especially "authority" figures...figures being the operative word...umm...go figure!!! And I happen to agree with a lot of what they say...but this forum...is not the place...stick to playing with your levers and nevers... having said all that...fear not mods...the club will always yield to to the levers and the nevers....but its not their fault be cause they know exactly what they are doing (sic),,,with a k...painting what I see's...logo... channeling Gahan Wilson and Pogo...

WARNING, MIGHT BE MY USUAL TOO LONG POST. IF THAT BOTHERS YO, SKIP POST, OR JUST SKIM OVER THE HIGHLIGHTED/BOLDED AREAS

Terry's Cellar said...
Although I’m glad that my wife and I are fully vaccinated that choice can come with consequences and I respect those choosing to make a different choice.......................... She came in to find me unconscious on the floor. .............. a traumatic brain injury. I should have taken that second shot more seriously. The resolved on it’s own over a period of four to eight weeks and my latest scans indicate a complete recover. My situation was a unique event and a bit of a perfect storm. Just wanted to point out that it can be an important decision. It’s probably too dramatic to relate it to the treatment decision we make with PCa or is it.

Wow! Sorry to hear that happened, but glad you are all right now! That was a close call.

I should start a new poll, although there might be one of the type I am thinking all ready in existence? That poll would ask about how many HWPC brothers got Covid, and of those how many actually got bad sick from it? I know I am taking a chance even bringing this up, I might get my head handed to me, but Redwing and Alephnull's(and others. Who else? I'd have to go look) posts have me re-thinking whether I should not be silent. And Logo, your words have also inspired me: "Wait wait...the spins are getting me dizzy here...folks seem to be afraid to be wrong or to be right". But my posts and opinions do have a tendency to enrage quite a few folks, and I truly hate all of that. So these days I mostly hesitate.

But here I go. Whenever I read threads like this one, I am always thinking of the same thing. How much need was there for the vaccine, and whatever unwanted side effects might show up from it later on, in the first place? Even after FDA final approval, I speak as one who has observed recently FDA approved drugs being pulled from the market after people came to harm in surgery. And without the full on, normal approval process? Sounds a bit risky. So how great was the actual need?

Now, I can already hear some of you saying in a very calm voice: "Bill, you moron, don't you know over 1/2 million have died in this country alone?". Yes, I do, and that is terrible. But did it have to happen? Was a vaccine our ONLY hope?

I just read at the CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html

that- as of April- about 1 in 4 Americans- 114 million- had Covid. Of these, about 1 in 3.9, or 97.1 Million, had symptomatic Illnesses. Of those, there were 5.6 Million estimated hospitalizations. And sadly a bit over 1/2 million deaths(600,000). So my question is: I'm wondering how the HWPC brothers, known to be in a high risk group of age and disease, done compared to these numbers? I have a gut feeling that we have done a whole lot better than 1 in 4 getting symptomatic Covid 19. Am I way off on that? I don't know, I might be, but that is just my gut feeling. I'm not sure if a poll would work, because so many folks just read and rarely post. Plus, it would take quite a while probably before every one who reads here had a chance to post.

Still, that is my feeling/guess, that way less than 1 in 3.9 of us(HWPC readers) was actually sick with Covid, and way less than 1 in 4 of us were actually diagnosed with Covid, symptoms or no symptoms. Like, for example, my family and I, no signs of it, praise the Lord, (but most of us have not been tested, just going by none of us have been sick).

Now, if I am right about that( am I?), why on earth would that be? In our higher risk(age, depressed immune symptoms, some of us are diabetic, some are over weight, etc) All of which should tend us towards higher than 1 in 4 with symptomatic Covid, right? When we do get it, we would all be in a group with a higher than average chance of hospitalization or even death, right? So if we have not had higher than average severe Covid, why the heck haven't we? It appears our immune systems- rather than being weakened by age and disease and medical treatments- is actually stronger than average. Really? If so, then why?

Well, I hypothesize that the HWPC reader is much better educated than average - due to many, many threads(some closed!) read and debated here at HWPC- about the several different things that we can all easily do to vastly improve our odds. I know I have done many of these things, and I know that many of you guys have also done them. And if the entire nation had been informed by our government and their associated medical authorities do do what many of us have done, then the entire nation would have also have done MUCH better regarding the grim statistics of this disease. But, the authorities chose to not educate the public about these 1/2 dozen or so things, sometimes even denigrating anyone who did so. When Fauci et all had a press conference warning us to stay away from folks and wear masks at least until the vaccine got here, I never heard them mention these other things, except to sometimes say "there is no evidence that anything will help". The only exception to that I saw was when Fauci admitted in an obscure interview that he himself did some of these well known to be helpful things. That one time he admitted there was evidence for benefit of these substances for other infectious respiratory diseases, so why wouldn't it likely be helpful for Covid? So HE was taking them. Smart man.

But most of the public was uninformed. Therefore, most of the public did none of these things. Therefore, horrendous devastation nation and world wide. How much of that was really necessary? Did the HWPC group do a lot better than average in that regard, despite our higher risk? If so, is the reason we did better because we knew about these helpful things to do? If so, how much need was there to wait for the rushed new drug and whatever bad effects(hopefully none) it might later prove to have?

Of course, I might be totally wrong about us doing better on average the population at large. Am I?

Pfizer's vaccine was developed in a few hours of one day; Moderna's in two days. The rest of the time was needed for manufacturing doses and clinical trials. There was no point in slowing the development phase; that's the beauty of the new techniques. The trials proved the concept worked -- if you want to argue that EU approval was rushed, we can, although when I went out today, I didn't have to push the bodies any of the nearly 40% of US folks who were fully vaccinated away to open the front door. If the trials had not been successful, then we'd need to wait for trials of other vaccine candidates, but the wait is, fortunately for us, for the trials, not the development. And now, as a bonus that augers well, we have a practical proof of concept.

The J&J shots were completely halted (rightly or not) to evaluate any connection to an adverse event that, at the time, was happening in just one in a million cases (literally). That's pretty cautious, IMO.

Djin

Tudpock18 said...
BB, I'll take a shot at answering some of your questions:


2. How much need was there for the vaccine? A whole lot of need IMHO. Given that even if the other remedies you prescribe would work they were not pushed by the medical establishment.

Jim

Exactly. That is my point. I'm quite convinced(of course I might be wrong) that taking care of one or more of the other approaches, as I will bet $1 the majority of folks here did, would have slashed deaths. Thus greatly decreasing the need for a rushed vaccine. But, "they were not pushed by the medical establishment. ". Indeed, barely mentioned, by a very few. EDIT: and not infrequently disparaged with "There is no evidence", though there was. Therefore, 1/2 million die while awaiting the rushed vaccine. Now, if I am wrong about how many lives could have been saved, I should have been so easy to prove wrong. Since all of these things were readily available, dirt cheap, most did not even require a prescription, very safe compared to any drug(EDIT: almost impossible to over dose with vitamin C, for example), it would have been so easy to inform the public: "Hey, we don't really have proof yet for Covid, but a lot of evidence points to the concept you guys ought to be doing such and such. Probably better than dropping in huge numbers while waiting for this vaccine. Give it a shot. And you docs ought to consider some of the IV versions when some one comes to you already really sick".

The cost and danger of that approach would have been minimal. And if people continued dying in mass, with not even minimal improvement, no harm no foul. Just a "sorry, looks like that was a false hope, wait for the vaccine". People are out $20 or $30, at worse. But IF it worked like the vast majority of studies I saw, including some clinical trials, indicated that it might, Oh Glory. But they didn't, and they won't, but they will do a vaccine. So hopefully now that will stop the incredible death numbers. Because people and doctors will do that one.

But my original bet stands. Which is, virtually every one(95%+) of folks severely ill with this disease, in ICU, is insufficient or very deficient in these nutrients before they ever get sick, and certainly once in ICU. I have seen many, many studies confirming that, and few if any disproving it.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 5/19/2021 2:41:06 PM (GMT-6)

From everything that I have read, the vaccine seems to elicit a much stronger antibody response than that elicited by getting the actual virus, and that is the precise reason that the CDC is recommending getting vaccinated despite the fact that one has already obtained some immunity via infection.

As far as Fauci, if one wants to fault him, its pretty easy to do. Just like every expert on the planet that has spoken about this can easily be faulted at one point in time. Our knowledge about this virus has been gained incrementally, over time, and calculations and recommendations have been based on the best information available at the time. As time went on, the experts (not the quacks) have become more right than wrong on their recommendations.

Tudpock18 said...


2. How much need was there for the vaccine? A whole lot of need IMHO. Given that even if the other remedies you prescribe would work they were not pushed by the medical establishment.

Jim

Jim,
Another thing on how the gov and medical establishment mostly refused to consider the things I think they should have considered. Towards the end, when the vaccines were just becoming available for folks my age(72), I got to question 4 of my friends(2 couples) who had just come down with symptomatic Covid and one got hospitalized. When I asked those 4 what their treatment had been, all answered "go home, rest, vitamin C, D and zinc". Now, I am assuming the one that had to be hospitalized got something more than that, one of the IV infusions that became popular later in the pandemic(but obviously not IV C), but still, that was his answer. I also know of at least one nurse practitioner that was giving C, D and zinc to every one of her patients who tested positive or had symptoms. (but no word of anyone I know personally giving life saving IV C )

In addition to that, a few months ago one of my buddies over in Asheville, NC was having shoulder surgery. Like me, he is retired from anesthesia(CRNA), so when he got to the hospital, he was gabbing it up with many folks he had worked with a few years ago. Nurses, anesthesia MDs and CRNAs, surgeons, etc. He started discussing his paranoia of contacting Covid while in for surgery. He said virtually every pro he talked with said they were taking plenty of C, D and zinc + quercetin. So, it appears that an unknown % of doctors have read the same studies we all know about, and feel that it is a more than reasonable thing to do to cut their risk. Particularly since they are exposed to sick people's airways multiple times a day.

So, though some traditional medics are doing these things- they almost seem to be doing so in secret- they don't want any hassle from authorities who might object to them doing "unapproved" things for which there is "no evidence". But it is good news that some docs are doing these things whether or not they are widely approved. However, it would have been much better news if docs and better yet government had been informing people of these things BEFORE they got sick, or bad sick, and had to go to a doctor in the first place. That is what would have made all the difference, IMO. This, IMO, is what would have greatly effected the need for a rushed vaccine. But we will never know about that now. That is all water under the bridge. At least until the next virus shows up.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 5/19/2021 3:21:16 PM (GMT-6)

At the risk of jinxing things, I'm more optimistic. I think full re-openings are probably a bit early, but with so many people either being vaccinated or having immunity from covid, the possibilities for another wave are limited. (Maybe not by winter, but at least in the coming months.)

I do worry about the possibilities of new variants emerging from other parts of the world. With everything going on in India and such a large population, it certainly seems like that could happen. And it's so sad to see what's going on there right now.

BB: I don't suppose you have any data on Vitamin D levels in India do you?