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Posted 1/5/2011 5:13 PM (GMT 0)
Should science be democratic? Are all voices equal? Should the voice of someone who writes a blog be the equal of an investigator who organized a double blind randomized clinical trial to actually test whether a substance is beneficial. Should the reality of the greenhouse effect be decided by a vote of the U.S. Congress? If you think so, would you want them to vote on your cancer treatment and be bound by their decision?

Anytime I get into a jet, I'm glad that Boeing and Airbus do not decide on the design of their planes by a public vote. Anytime I make a decision about putting a medicine in my body, or X-rays, or cutting on it, I'd like to see the evidence that it is beneficial to me.
Posted 1/5/2011 5:14 PM (GMT 0)
Mel -

There are two reasons, in my view, for "not criticizing."

The first is that those who criticize tend, for the most part, to do so by way of unsupported assertions. Without evidentiary support, the assertions may be "discourse" but they are not "intellectual discourse." (If I call you a horse, that is discourse -- I guess -- but toward what end?) More to the point, if I say "5,000 i.u. per day of Vitamin D won't reduce your tumor volume, and also is dangerous, so you are just fooling yourself if you take that supplement" -- that is just an assertion. I don't think it is helpful to anyone. If it comes along with a study from a peer-reviewed journal, or something like that, then it could potentially be helpful. But criticisms based on bald assertions or uninformed views don't seem to me to further anyone's cause. And i suspect many of the assertions we see stated as fact are just as likely to be untrue as true.

The second reason is that many of the criticisms are articulated in what strikes me as an unnecessarily confrontational manner. We all need to think about whether we are doing more harm than good. ("Am I providing useful information here? If I am stating something as a fact, do I have good evidence that is it a fact? Could I make my point in a less abrassive way?").
Posted 1/5/2011 5:16 PM (GMT 0)

Lifestyle therapy "ain't for sissies", to borrow a phrase from Bette Davis.  It takes hard work, dedication, and self-discipline, which is why many men prefer to solely rely on conventional treatments for PC.

Remember the old rule of the desert:  "Trust in God, but tie your camel to a tree."  The same applies to dealing with a cancer diagnosis.  First, find a medical team you trust.  Then your task is to do everything in your power to maximize your recovery.

From the Dr Mark Scholz book Invasion of the Body Snatchers, "Everyone I have talked with who has done really well in the cancer wars has made diet and exercise a key part of their recovery program."  I know that this discussion is largely about supplements, and this Scholz comment is about diet and exercise (which have been my strongest personal area of focus—diet and exercise are two of the "big three" for lifestyle therapy for PC, with the third being stress reduction), but the Scholz book does give recommendations on a very limited set of supplements which should be palatable to almost everyone...but Mel is, perhaps, going out on a limb by recommending pine bark. 

The list of Scholz recommendations (pg 194):

     Calcium 500 mg wit dinner

     Fish Oil 1000 mg twice per day

     Vit D 2000 IU per day

     Lycopene 10mg per day

     To be avoided:  multivitamins, iron, copper, zinc

Hope this helps...

Posted 1/5/2011 6:00 PM (GMT 0)
Casey,
Scholz recommends these for patients with active prostate cancer. He also recommends pomegranite and a few other spplements. After my treatment he only recommended Vit D as the only supplement I should be taking.
JT
Posted 1/5/2011 6:02 PM (GMT 0)
John -- why is he against multi-vitamins?

ed

 

Posted 1/5/2011 6:06 PM (GMT 0)

medved said...
Mel -

The second reason is that many of the criticisms are articulated in what strikes me as an unnecessarily confrontational manner. We all need to think about whether we are doing more harm than good. ("Am I providing useful information here? If I am stating something as a fact, do I have good evidence that is it a fact? Could I make my point in a less abrassive way?").

QFT well said.
Posted 1/5/2011 6:29 PM (GMT 0)

F8 said...
John -- why is he against multi-vitamins?

F8, I know that you directed your question to JohnT, and not to me, but I just saw this in the Scholz book.  I'll simply quote (from page 193), but will add underlining for my own point of emphasis:

"The results of a well-designed study of high doses of multivitamins published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute indicated a high risk of prostate cancer mortality with excess intake of multivitamins."

---------------------------------

 

JohnT, thanks for replying with your personal experience with Dr Scholz, and for the clarification.

 

---------------------------------

 

Even though I really like what medved wrote (also quoted by daveshan, above), can we please drop the discussion of Canadian healthcare from this thread?  If you want to carry on, maybe start another thread.   Maybe on another site?
Posted 1/5/2011 6:34 PM (GMT 0)
Casey -- thanks. i figured it was something like that.  my vitamins are 100% of daily requirements with antioxidants.

ed

Posted 1/5/2011 6:58 PM (GMT 0)
Casey, what does he say is a 'high dose'? A normal multi once a day? He must be speaking of many more than the close of minimum adult requirements most multis have.
Posted 1/5/2011 7:13 PM (GMT 0)

James C. said...
Casey, what does he say is a 'high dose'? A normal multi once a day? He must be speaking of many more than the close of minimum adult requirements most multis have.

Here's the report from the Journal of the National Cancer Institute which Scholz was pointing to:

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/99/10/754.full.pdf+html

I haven't read this yet (just the Abstract)...but here's the conclusion:

Conclusion These results suggest that regular multivitamin use is not associated with the risk of early or localized prostate cancer. The possibility that men taking high levels of multivitamins along with other supplements have increased risk of advanced and fatal prostate cancers is of concern and merits further evaluation.

Posted 1/5/2011 7:53 PM (GMT 0)

Empirical......did somebody say empirical? Here's a true story for you:

I am a runner. 15 years ago I had arthroscopic surgery on my left knee to repair a torn medial meniscus. No big deal--typical runner's injury..usually repaired and you're back on the roads in 3 months. Following the surgery, the surgeon told me I'd never run again, and to get a bike or stationary one for aerobic exersize, or else I'd be crippled. He stated that I had arthritis hanging like cobwebs and showed me the pictures he took inside my knee----I mentioned I had just begun taking Glucosamine Sulfate. This well respected, but haughty and arrogant MD said "that's nice if you think it makes you feel better"----his instructions were not to run and he'd see me in 6 months for follow-up. I did as told, but kept taking the supplement. When he examined me again, he couldn't believe that there were no degenerative changes in my knee via radiological film. "Are you still taking that stuff?" He said "I can't stop you from running, but if you do, you'll be back on my table again"--------at the one-year mark from surgery, he again did x-rays and asked how much I'd run. Told him I'd done a 1/2 marathon and other distances in addition to my weekly maintenance runs. When he saw the results, he said, "Where you get this stuff, how much do you take, and how much does it cost? I'm good, but not that good"------he then proceeded to study me for another 4 years on the insurance company's dime. At the end of 5 years, no degenerative changes. I had been taking Glucosamine Sulfate every day for that period, and continue to this day. He, to his credit, began suggesting GS to all his patients, and also continues to this day.-------Does the GS relate to PCa? Probably not. But as far as supplements being beneficial, infer what you will. It could have all been chalked up to placebo effect, voodoo science and my perception had it not been for the ongoing radiological evidence.

Arnie in DE

Posted 1/5/2011 7:53 PM (GMT 0)

Each and every one of you have a very valid discussion item within this post.  I chose not to use the term argument (for argument's sake).

In the past three years, approximately, I believe, for me only, in one thing about PC.  My PC may have been affected by Stress / Testosterone Levels / Diet.  I would never suggest that I believe there might be a causal effect here.  For me, RP was suggested as my first line fight against PC.  For me, RT was suggested as my second line fight against PC.  At present,  for me, ADT or HT is my third line fight against PC.  With these things said, for me,  part of my fight against PC has been reducing stress,  obviously reducing my testosterone levels, and improving my diet.  I have recently retired full time from a very stressful career,  now part time only.  I am currently on what will hopefully be IHT, reducing my T levels. Because I believe  that a healthy body and mind may assist(ed) each of these medical approaches  in my personal fight against PC,  a fourth integrative approach  supports this fight, for me.  I would never suggest that supplements and a healthier diet, for me, would work alone.  However, I do feel that removing  red meat, sugar, as well as dairy and wheat products, encorporated with a regular exercise program, have kept me otherwise "healthy" for the past three years.  I have not had a cold or the flu that surrounds me nor have I been given the H1N1 / flu vaccines in two years. (not recommended with my treatments) I support my diet with Vit. D (2000) Calcium (2000) and Omega 3's ,  protein shakes with enormous amounts of fruit,  daily.

So what is my point?  My point, for me, is that I have treated my body like a temple during these last three lines against PC.  Do I believe integrative therapy will cure my PC.  Of course I do not.  But I do believe that by reducing my stress levels,  lowering my T levels and by improving my diet with the addition of supplements,  my body and my mind are in a far better state to fight this B-----!

Posted 1/5/2011 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
Skate, I am glad that approach has worked so well for you.
Posted 1/5/2011 8:43 PM (GMT 0)
David:

I hope you are right.  At least I have the feeling within that I have tried everything.  The rest is up to...to finding a cure!  How's that?

Posted 1/5/2011 8:46 PM (GMT 0)
Skate,

That is what it comes down to, we all, in the end, have to do what we think its right for ourself in our own life. And there are no certainties or guaranties of course.

David
Posted 1/5/2011 8:56 PM (GMT 0)

Skate said...

...I would never suggest that supplements and a healthier diet, for me, would work alone.  

 

...I have treated my body like a temple during these last three lines against PC. 

 

...Do I believe integrative therapy will cure my PC.  Of course I do not. 

Skate, these are some good, common-sense perspectives.  Good luck to you.

Adding a comment of my own to the last point, above, I would further comment that retaining a medical team without doing all you can to help yourself (in a way similar to how you have done all you can do to help yourself stack the odds in your favor for a good outcome) is like attempting to walk with one stilt.  It's possible but the results are frequently disappointing.

best regards...

edit later:  I added underlines to two of Skate's words in the words I extracted so that the key point of the first and third comments was not misunderstood

Post Edited (Casey59) : 1/5/2011 6:49:19 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/5/2011 10:02 PM (GMT 0)

daveshan said...
.....however the risk of getting sued for not prescribing the "accepted standard" was high. Any deviation from the current best practices was risky. He had done a lot of reading on Eastern medicine and was very positive toward it but reluctant to propose any.

3. Yes everyone has the right to express their own views but what's the point in cluttering up a thread with nay saying to the point that any info that might actually be on topic is lost in the BS. I'm sure a shrink would be able to figure out why people have to rain on others parades but I can't.

Thanks Dave - On all points..   I have already said that I don't want this thread clouded by the Meds issue (despite my bringing it up), but ALL must understand the issues with Meds and Litigation.
I have noted how many doctors will skirt the issue of alternates, until YOU bring it up.  Some will  ONLY THEN  open up and tell you what they believe.  I think that the difference is that the Patient has raised the subject and thus the GP is likely clear of any accusation of Mal-Practice.
There also seems to be a different situation with doctors  Actively-Supporting  alternate medicine.  They seem to be able to get openly straight into it by charging as a "Special Consultation", again, I suspect, linking your visit to YOU wanting the information.

I admit that I am just as skeptical as anyone of "Snake-Oil" treatments, and feel most disappointed when I find some "Self-Proclaimed-Expert" , make a really great statement on something and then say  "and the best pills are those   I   sell"....  Instantly, you are deflated.

I posed my question in various way and at various times because I    DON'T   want to be solely convinced by those selling the stuff, but by those   USING   the stuff..   I have been open with my experience and as I may have shown via other threads, I am prepared to think outside the square, and look beyond the bureaucratic crap, and litigation protection, and the Pharma-Smoke-screens.

My issue is that I have found Medical University findings that declare that OPC's  show great promise and call for In-Vivo study, but no one will do the In-Vivo study.   You can start to understand WHY, when you see that most of such funding comes from the Pharma's who are interested in NEW things to sell.  Products like OPC's, can never the patented or registered.  They can only be locked up by virtue of some magic 'Production-Process', and that is still a most risky process, because it won't stop someone else claiming their process is just as good.
It's Lose-Lose for the Pharma's and they know it..  So in the end it all falls onto the Public-Purse and there is just not enough there (especially now after the GFC).

Likely - even if a University was interested in doing a study, they might be reluctant if they were sponsored by a big Pharma' for much of their other research.


So the thread is seeking details of peoples experience, good and bad.  If you have NO  experience, then you are asked to go away, and not intimidate others from expressing their feelings.


Arnie Said  ~~""that's nice if you think it makes you feel better"----his instructions were not to run and he'd see me in 6 months for follow-up. I did as told, but kept taking the supplement. When he examined me again, he couldn't believe that there were no degenerative changes in my knee via radiological film."~~
This is just so bloody typical, and especially with "Specialists" who seem to think that they alone know all there is to know.
The interesting thing is that we have been taking Glucosamin/Condrointin for 15 odd years.   It did help dramatically, but not completely.
Most notable was the result when we would go on holidays and not want to carry "Strange White Power" through customs.  After two weeks, the knees would start to LOCK up.  Two weeks after re-commencing on the stuff, the knees were again fine..  but..  it never took the crunching away.  That has only disappeared after three months on OPC.
One knee has no cartilage, the other does..  For any purpose, I cannot tell which, other than the scars..

Skate Said  ~~"My PC may have been affected by Stress / Testosterone Levels / Diet.  I would never suggest that I believe there might be a causal effect here."~~
and that is the real point..  For  US  the challenge is now and we really don't care about what 'might' be developed in 10 years time.  Our goal is to be around then.

Arnie Said ~~"But as far as supplements being beneficial, infer what you will. It could have all been chalked up to placebo effect, voodoo science and my perception had it not been for the ongoing radiological evidence."~~
and, again my point..  I can also point to a gut-specialist who told a friend that OPC could do nothing for his Crones Disease, until one day he asked about how many of the expensive tablets he was taking to achieve his very stable state.  He was astounded when he heard  "NONE", and now that specialist is recommending the supplement to ALL his patients, but doing it in a complementary way...  "..take OPC and then reduce your tablets as you feel you can..." and so the onus is for the patient to decide.  (minimal risk to the doctor)

daveshan Said  ~~"the risk of getting sued for not prescribing the "accepted standard" was high. Any deviation from the current best practices was risky. "~~
No comments needed - A clear statement of fact..   It's only those who devise ways of getting around the issue, who will take the risk..

Purgatory Said  ~~"You skirted the question pretty good about whether your own doctor has noticed any change in your PC because of your methods, I could only guess that the real answer is no."~~
Sorry - Did not mean to skirt the question..  but I thought it was rather OBVIOUS - I am cured of cancer..  It is GONE..  I am in the  ZERO  club..   Is there something there that I am missing?   Are you saying that my doctors are lying to me ?

Purgatory Said  ~~"The China Study is old news, you are about 6 years late on that one. That's been hashed to death previously.
"~~
Oh so sorry that I am not as well read as you are..  I'll try to read faster..   Do you have a reference to those 'hashings' so that I can catch up.

PS -


...Do I believe integrative therapy will cure my PC.  Of course I do not. 

Actually , and without being critical, I find this statement sad. 

One of the greatest healers is "Positive Attitude", and we are continually told that in 30% of cases, a Placebo effect can happen..  ..  So - medically, it is recognised that ATTITUDE can play an important role..   Whilst I declare myself officially cured of PCa, I now realise that I am NOT as bullet-proof as I thought.

I had NOTHING wrong with me and a Doctor Change caused me to have a blood test and suddenly I had CANCER.

So I am happy to think that Integrative Medicine MIGHT, perhaps MIGHT just make the difference in getting me to 80 or beyond..

We all should have a positive attitude !

Do our doctors not basically treat us for what is wrong with us..  ie.  we go to see them for help with problems..  Anything that can't harm us, and can help us, is surely the best way of NEVER needing to see a doctor..   So - what are those ways?

..
.

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 1/5/2011 3:50:11 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/6/2011 2:09 AM (GMT 0)
BuiDoi said... PS - ...Do I believe integrative therapy will cure my PC.  Of course I do not.   Actually , and without being critical, I find this statement sad.  One of the greatest healers is "Positive Attitude"... BuiDoi,   Respectfully, I believe that you might have misinterpreted Skate’s meaning.   This very well may be my fault by copying/pasting too few words, but since Skate’s posting was just above mine, I figured anyone who read Skate’s post would get the full meaning, and so I just quoted a few short words.   I think that Skate and you are on the same wavelength with regard to positive attitude.   Not intending to place words into Skate’s mouth, but I interpreted what he said to essentially mean this (with my words added in red):   ...Do I believe integrative therapy alone, without any additional conventional therapy , will completely cure and rid me of my PC.  Of course I do not.     Now, this has a completely different meaning from the way I think you (BuiDoi) interpreted it, doesn’t it?   Why do I think that this is what he meant?   Because here is a longer quoted passage from him, including that one smaller statement in bold:   I would never suggest that supplements and a healthier diet, for me, would work alone.  However, I do feel that removing  red meat, sugar, as well as dairy and wheat products, encorporated with a regular exercise program, have kept me otherwise "healthy" for the past three years.  I have not had a cold or the flu that surrounds me nor have I been given the H1N1 / flu vaccines in two years. (not recommended with my treatments) I support my diet with Vit. D (2000) Calcium (2000) and Omega 3's ,  protein shakes with enormous amounts of fruit,  daily.   So what is my point?  My point, for me, is that I have treated my body like a temple during these last three lines against PC.  Do I believe integrative therapy will cure my PC.  Of course I do not.   But I do believe that by reducing my stress levels,  lowering my T levels and by improving my diet with the addition of supplements,  my body and my mind are in a far better state to fight this B-----!     I try very hard to not take words out of context, but I’m afraid that the way you picked up my smaller quote was taken out of context of the larger picture.   My apologies to both you and Skate if I caused this…and I encourage Skate to correct me if I have erred.     Read Skate's posting, and see if I clarified the context properly...In the bigger picture, I think you will find Skate's posting not to be "sad"; rather, uplifting.
Posted 1/6/2011 3:59 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you for that Casey59. You are right on as far as the intent of my message.  I do believe that we are both (BoiDoi and myself) on the same page.  Any sentence can be taken from the intended context and mean something different when isolated. I thank you for clarifying this.
Posted 1/6/2011 4:42 AM (GMT 0)
.

Thanks Casey and Skate..  At least it is confirmed that we are singing from the same hymnal..

I was trying to respond to so many thoughts and I grabbed the quote and not the thought.. mad .  ( Which I had read in it's entirety )

"integrative therapy"  --  Actually, I have always presumed that this implied complete integration of Conventional Medicine, possible experimental Medicine, and alternatives of food and supplements that will not clash with anything else, and then there is the Mind - the right positive attitude..  Naturally, if things are not as rosie as one would hope, then a belief that bestows a sense of peace, can help control the stress.

.

There was such a lovely little (6yo) on TV some weeks ago.  She developed a really bad cancer that took he quickly, but this dear little thing, was just so at peace and resigned to her fate..  I doubt that there was a dry eye watching the story..

PS - VitD - The new wonder..  I have heard people claiming that at the first sign of the flu..  5000IU a day will restrict it's duration to under 3 days.

I have been waiting to try the claim.

..

.

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 1/5/2011 9:45:23 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/6/2011 5:12 AM (GMT 0)
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62I3MK20100319
Posted 1/6/2011 8:40 AM (GMT 0)
Try this one -- clickable instead of copy and paste to your browser address bar.
www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62I3MK20100319
Posted 1/6/2011 1:34 PM (GMT 0)
I’m a believer in Mind over Matter. And I find some of the things you read about the placebo effect very interesting.

If people can take sugar pills and stop smoking or have less pain etc.. there has to be something positive going on.

Just last night on the evening news.
Group one stared at a bowl of M&M’s and were told to spend time imagining how yummy it’d be to eat them.

Group two were told to drop coins through a slot. … Then both groups were handed a bowl of M&M’s and told to eat as many as they wanted. Group One ate a lot less because they had already had an “imaginary” fill of sugar… 

On my three month post op visit with my surgeon I was down to two pads a day. He told me he wanted me off pads by our next visit three months away. He said it in a way that made me think I had a choice in the matter..  Two days later on Saturday, I tried it without pads and haven’t used one since. We’ll never know how much longer I would have used a pad without his “power of suggestion”… But I think it would have been many more weeks.

And it just so happens, I'm the kind of guy that can sit in a Doctor's waiting room waiting to be treated for something like a sore throat - And I start feeling better just knowing I'm about to be treated by a medical professional.

Posted 1/6/2011 6:54 PM (GMT 0)
BuiDoi,  you are absolutely correct re: integrative thereapy.  What I was referring to was the integration of exercise and diet including supplements with conventional medical treatments.  Perhaps I used the term too loosely.  I agree with your response(s).  Thank you.
Posted 1/18/2011 7:33 PM (GMT 0)
personal experience- my dad told his oncologist he was doing hyperbaric oxygen and vitamin C injections, as well as lots of vitamin D, and also K and shark liver oil- the oncologist said "fine"
so, since it doesn't interfere with the HT, and we know that vit. D deficiency is chronic here in Canada, we are hoping this will help since it doesn't hurt. All too recent to tell rt now.
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