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Posted 8/6/2011 12:31 PM (GMT 0)

There is some good news about POM.  Researchers from UCLA, JH, Duke and MDA are involved in seven different studies evaluating the effectiveness of pomegranate supplements.  They must have seen some signs of benefit in the earlier studies. They wouldn't be wasting this kind of money on a fad.  Hopefully we will know a lot more in a few years. 

Posted 8/6/2011 1:42 PM (GMT 0)

I have been contributing support at HealingWell about 2-years, and in the last 1-year have noted what I perceive as a tipping-point in interest and enthusiasm for the patient-to-patient support and education for lifestyle changes which help improve PC outcomes.

Two years ago, the more common response at HW to supportive comments on lifestyle changes was (something like), “well, the cow is already out of the barn, I’m gonna just keep eating steak and hamburger everyday and sit in my Lazy-Boy recliner & watch TV all day.”  Another frequent (typical) response to suggested diet or exercise changes was, “it hasn’t been 100% proven that it’s gonna cure anything.”   Sadly, there was even strong ‘anti-support’ directed at others (typically leading to moderator intervention and deleted posts) who aggressively embraced lifestyle changes but were insulted, ridiculed and “run-off” the site.

Today at HW, there is much more support and sharing of the beneficial aspects diet & exercise (lifestyle changes), and the ‘anti-support’ for steps forward that other men take to improve their own outcomes has greatly diminished.  The change has been slow, but evident, and I think there is now a much broader understanding here that good science supports integrative medical approaches (credit to Tony for introducing that term here at HW) of to focusing first on putting the best available medical team in place, then second concentrating efforts on the elements within your reach which contribute to your fullest recovery and best possible outcome, quality of life and longevity…I call that “stacking the odds in your favor.”  (I only wish that former participants “SV”, and “Jim is sick”, and others who were “run-off” would come back and share more about their journey…we could all continue to benefit from their experiences.)

 

In another recent thread, JohnT discusses the underlying presence of the individual’s personal bias—even in light of good science—to embrace, rationalize, and stick-to, even a flawed concept.  In other separate threads, I have expressed the same concept using the old adage, “change is difficult.”  Nonetheless, I think it’s been an observable change that more men here at HW are responding in various threads that with the growing number of scientific studies supporting the favorable influence of pomegranate on PC, more men are adding juice/extract to their daily regimen.  I think it’d be interesting to take the pulse of the HW participants to try to gauge the extent of men who have taken this step.  Look for a “poll” set up in another thread.  (Too bad we don’t have a poll from a year or more ago to gauge the extent of change since then.)

 

 

By the way, I think that it’s always important to keep bringing up (in new threads) the topic of lifestyle changes which are beneficial to PC because (sadly) everyday we have newcomers who will be starting the process of learning & educating themselves to become empowered patients in the battle against PC.


 

--------------------------------

edit:  fixed a couple typos

Post Edited (Casey59) : 8/6/2011 8:44:15 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/6/2011 4:06 PM (GMT 0)
Casey, hate to be the one to break it to you, but there was great patient to patient support here and open discussion at HW long before you came here. You kind of stereotyped every previous poster to your time in your comments.

I have been here almost 3 years now, and I remember when it was moving away from its prime goal (by the owner of this site's vision) of being a support site. For a period of many months, it was becoming a place of constant debate and arguments mostly over technical issues of our disease and treatment. A few were coming across as if they had some special level of knowledge, but that was misleading as their opinions weren't back by medical training or the experience level of a good doctor or specialist.

The sad thing, is that there aren't any experts here and there aren't any doctors on board, so any technical opinions are just that, subjective opinions by the writer of the posts.  Even the true qualified experts on these matters rarely agree among themselves, that should tell people something about putting too much stock into studies and surveys.

I am happy to see that HW is turning around back to being more on the support side.

These nitty-gritty technical discourses, in my opinion, only serve a limited value to a limited crowd. For the average newcomer, we are still dealing with men terrified with a cancer diagnosed, frightened and overwhelmed with decision choices they don't understand, and fearful for their lives. That's the part that needs to be addressed constantly.

We all have our own doctors for the real medical questions and choices, and our opinions and biases to treatment should always be secondary to the minds of those seeking answers.

Just my take.

David in SC
Posted 8/6/2011 5:47 PM (GMT 0)
Mel -- you're a university professor and you think a buck a day is expensive...especially when your life is on the line?  really?  i think that makes you cheap.

ed

 

Posted 8/6/2011 5:56 PM (GMT 0)
Ed,

Not sure that was called for -
Posted 8/6/2011 5:59 PM (GMT 0)
 >>i don't think wishful thinking and "stacking the odds" is ever going to change anyone's ultimate cancer outcome.<<

obviously, David.  that's your choice and by god you are sticking to your guns cool .

ed

 

Posted 8/6/2011 6:01 PM (GMT 0)
142 -- i think it was.  the taxpayers have paid over $200k to treat my prostate cancer and i would be a tight ass if i weren't willing to spend a buck a day on a pomergranate pill cool .

ed

 

Posted 8/6/2011 6:36 PM (GMT 0)
Wow! I was having a dull day until I decided to visit HW instead of taking an afternoon nap. I think the Pom poll is a good idea. My sense is that many HW members have drunk the cool-aid and are doing the diet/suppliment thing. In my view the evidence that diet/suppliments have a positive effect on slowing the progression on PCa (not a cure) is overwelming. At my age and with my stats, I will probably die of PCa. If diet suppliment can get me a few additional years,I am jumping in with both feet.
Posted 8/6/2011 6:57 PM (GMT 0)
Just to balance some of the testimonials here, since, for better or worse, lots of people read these posts to make medical decisions. The evidence that supplements, of any sort, slow the progression of prostate cancer is not overwhelming, it's underwhelming. Use of these supplements is a matter of opinion, and belief, not of medical evidence. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is not correct to present the value of supplements as proven, when it is not.

There are many ways that clinical studies can give false positive results. An example of is hormone replacement therapy for women after menopause. There were three decades worth of studies that HRT was good for women in many ways, and most women in the US got it. Then there was a rigorous randomized control study that demonstrated that it increased the risk of heart disease and stroke, and, because this study was convincing, they stopped giving it. Since that was done, breast cancer rates in the US have progressively gone down. See:

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/137915.php

How can it be proven that POM or some other supplement actually slows the rate of prostate cancer progression? The only standard of evidence that is universally taken as proof, is a controlled, randomized, blinded study (level 1 evidence) where patients are given pills (placebo or POM) and followed over time, where neither the subject and the researcher know what the patient is getting until after the study is completed. That's was was done with HRT in women. When this kind of study is published, you will see all the medical websites (like the NIH website that I linked in a prior message above) change their recommendations, and say that there is evidence that POM works or that there is evidence that POM doesn't work. When that day comes, there will be a thread here announcing it, and you all will know the answer.

Till that day, true believers and unbelievers alike need to acknowledge that current evidence is inadequate.
Posted 8/6/2011 7:06 PM (GMT 0)
We'll likely all be dead before proof is "adequate" by your definition.

Ed
Posted 8/6/2011 7:21 PM (GMT 0)
Postop, are you are local arbitrator on what is overwelming/underwelming or adequate/inadequate? Well I'm glad your here to make sure no one gets the wrong impression from reading these threads.
Posted 8/6/2011 7:23 PM (GMT 0)

Ed, you make a good point.  My wife and I both use some supplements even though the evidence is not overwhelming.  For example: my wife is slowly going blind because of macular degeneration.  There are several small studies that suggest that Lutein supplements slow and may actually prevent progression.  We can sit back and do nothing and go blind or take a chance and spend a few pennies a day and maybe stop the disease.  I feel the same way about Vit. D and evidence that it may help prevent MS, Parkinsons and muscle loss.  I have absolutely nothing to lose.  Ditto about pom.   As far as wasting money goes, I owned a large sailboat many years ago and that was like standing in the shower and stuffing hundred dollar bills down the drain.  Now that is wasting money(but a lot of fun).

Carlos

Posted 8/6/2011 7:37 PM (GMT 0)
postop,

i appreciate your last post on this subject, you said in a more articulated manner a point I was trying to make, but it came out much smoother than what i was saying, sometimes i just speak off the cuff. i dont' think it serves anyone's interest to make some of these supplement/vitamin/other treatment items as some dogmatic truth when in reality they are not.

i have never been opposed to any member here taking whatever they want to take, good or bad or in-between. i am all about freedom of choice. ultimately, everything we do or don't do, is of our own choosing when it comes to these things.

david
Posted 8/6/2011 7:51 PM (GMT 0)
There are a lot of foods that come in the category of "can't hurt, so why not?" However, what I have trouble with are the foods with contradictory claims.

For example, most sites recommend avoiding dairy products but recently the Dr. Oz show made the claim that hard cheeses such as Gouda and Edam are rich in vitamin K2 which protects against prostate cancer.

Then some recommend against alcohol consumption while others claim that both red wine and an ingredient in hops from beer have beneficial properties.

And some claim that coffee aggravates the prostate but recent studies claim that men with high coffee consumption have lower risks of prostate cancer.

Perhaps fodder for those who say to eat what you want. For me it's an excuse to drink coffee, wine and beer. smilewinkgrin

(I'm still deciding on the cheese.)
Posted 8/6/2011 7:57 PM (GMT 0)
Carlos -- my wife spends $5-$10 a day at starbucks and i think it's a waste of money but she doesn't and she works hard for her money.  some things in life require a leap of faith.  for me taking a POMx pill daily is a no-brainer.  my wife has a masters in biology and she's pretty much anti-supplements but shortly after i was diagnosed with cancer -- and she did tons of research --  she said "you need to start taking pomegranate....there may be something to it".

if i'm wrong it cost me a buck a day...big deal.

ed

Posted 8/6/2011 9:02 PM (GMT 0)
I’m new to this esteemed club no one wants to be a part of having been first diagnosed on 14 July 2010.
I fit what Purgatory described as “For the average newcomer, we are still dealing with men terrified with a cancer diagnosed, frightened and overwhelmed with decision choices they don't understand, and fearful for their lives”.
Yes that was me. Everyone who responded to my topic – greatly helped me – To be honest for the first week all I did was read the responses to my topic and try to figure out what they meant.
BUT a lot of the initial terrified / fear went away as I realized there are others like me who have survived and are continuing with their lives

Our treatment has multiple parts – in the simplest terms – The Medical part and the What we can do ourselves part.
To me lifestyle changes (diet and exercise) is what I can do myself. By doing that, I feel like I am doing something every day to fight this thing.
That makes me feel better.

Take a look at in this thread Caseys post of 5 August 4:00 PM (GMT -6) - wow that really seems to say pomegranate can help. My thinking is why not? I like the taste, it costs me about $1.12 a day for the Trader Joes brand – and gives me a feeling that I am doing something.

Just my two cents

Bud

Post Edited (Raddad) : 8/6/2011 4:29:38 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/6/2011 10:18 PM (GMT 0)
Postop,
As I recall both the UCLA and the Hopkins studies were double blind studies with placebos.
JT
Posted 8/6/2011 10:25 PM (GMT 0)
[quote]These nitty-gritty technical discourses, in my opinion, only serve a limited value to a limited crowd.

Well Purg, we're all entitled to our own opinion, that's for sure. However, don't you think that "support" can mean different things to different people, and that maybe just because it isn't your cup-o-tea, it might just be still be O.K. for others to have their technical discussions?

I'd say there is room for both the "support" you thrive on, and the types of "support" and discussions others (however limited that group may be) seem to enjoy.
Posted 8/6/2011 10:43 PM (GMT 0)
paralleli,

i never said or implied that the other discussions were wrong or without merit. too often, they tend to turn into academic pissing contests, and my real point, is there is no one here that is medically qualified (to my knowledge) to have a definitive answer or conclusion to most of these conflicting studies, etc.

i don't, as you put it, "thrive" on any of it one way or the other. too often, some choose to present questionable and at the least, subjective material as if it were a fact carved in stone. others, by implication, make it sound like one is lesser in knowledge or intelligence, if they choose a different path, or if they choose not to follow what is stated.

david
Posted 8/6/2011 11:11 PM (GMT 0)
Purg,

"by implication, make it sound like one is lesser in knowledge or intelligence, if they choose a different path, or if they choose not to follow what is stated."

Speak for yourself Buddy.......
Posted 8/6/2011 11:33 PM (GMT 0)
your point?

i have never pushed a treatment path here, one way or the other, and have always encouraged those that make their own decisions. i am the first to admit that i have no qualifications on advising any medical decisions to anyone. i have been the victim of many a condenscending coment to my own posts over a long period of time. i feel we are all equal peers here at HW, i don't consider anyone smarter or dumber than another, so don't know where you are coming from.

david
Posted 8/6/2011 11:43 PM (GMT 0)
John T, Both studies were double blind but the Hopkins study only  looked at 2 different dosing levels.  The UCLA study was randomized double blind with placebo.  

Carlos 

Posted 8/7/2011 12:03 AM (GMT 0)
I just read this entire thread.  Here we go again.   Looks like it's starting to get a bit ugly again, as it always seems to do.

Yet, if boiled down to its most basic elements, the gist of it is not too earth-shaking:  some guys have read studies that they feel support the use of pomegranate juice or extract and have added it to their diet; some have read the same studies (or have read the discussions about them) but feel the jury is still out, and so they either use it or don't, depending on their own personal choice; and still others don't find the studies convincing and choose not to use it.

And I think that's the correct take-away for newcomers to the site.  Here's something that may be helpful, or it may not.  It won't harm you, it may do you good, or it may just be an alternative to orange juice.

I tried the juice, thought it tasted pretty nasty, and haven't bought any since.  But, for those of you who like it and have faith in its benefits, more power to you, and I hope it works for you.  I just don't see it as something to argue over.

 

 

Posted 8/7/2011 12:17 AM (GMT 0)
Well said Clock. Probably time to put this one to bed. It will of course come up again in some other variation in a month or two.
Posted 8/7/2011 1:34 AM (GMT 0)
Ah David, I'm with you and your oncologists,
As you know, when you have been around here a while these things come and go. There have always been those that see the latest announcement on what affects PCa, PSA etc as infallible. Look back on the rabid supporters Vs the " show me da proof" group." There was
(1) Capsacain

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16540674"

(2) Selenium

www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s17802.htm

(3) Vitamin E

www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6102

(4) Soy

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080314085038.htm

(5) Lycopene

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15949687

And they're only the good ones. Let's not even think about red meat, alcohol and, gasp, shudder, SUGAR. Now I could find more miracles that have been raised and fiercely debated here over the years -------- that is not a problem nor is the information. The problem is the attitude of those whose don't like their latest miracle hobbyhorse being questioned.

So to all those who are getting their knickers in a knot and feel the need to become aggressive when their pronouncements lauding the latest magic bullet are brought into question, I have an announcement -------- pleeeeze, we have seen it all before and it soon too shall pass.

Skeptical Bill

Post Edited (BillyMac) : 8/6/2011 7:43:35 PM (GMT-6)

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