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Does HT kill cancer cells or not?

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Posted 11/24/2012 5:27 AM (GMT 0)
In a recent thread, I saw several mentions that HT does not kill cancer cells.
In other threads, I have read that it does.

After just reading one particular thread, I searched for some info and I found something by Dr. Meyers. The article is interesting on many fronts, but I was specifically looking for the info on HT and cancer cells.

http://prostate-cancer.org/beating-prostate-cancer-with-hormonal-therapy/
(sorry, can't get an active link to work.)

So, the question begs, does HT kill prostate cancer cells or not?
Posted 11/24/2012 8:29 AM (GMT 0)
It may kill some.
Posted 11/24/2012 9:37 AM (GMT 0)
What is known is this:

It may kill SOME but it doesn't kill ALL the cancer cells. Some cells (perhaps stem cells, this is debated) continue to live and grow and reproduce at a low level while HT is going on and sooner or later (in nearly all cases) the cells mutate enough to become resistant to hormone therapy, for reasons that are only now being understood. There is a lot of research going on about just how they become resistant to HT, so that new drugs can be engineered that work longer.

It may kill a lot of the cancer cells, enough to drive PSA down very low in some patients, even sometimes to undetectable levels. But it is not considered curative, only temporarily preventing the growth of the cancer. However in some people that "temporary" prevention can last a long time, more than a decade.
Posted 11/24/2012 10:39 AM (GMT 0)
I believe HT kills cancer cells, just like a plant would wilt without water, however, those cells that are not killed over time acquire ability through mutations to reproduce further. This was also described by pathologists who find different protein expressions in prostate tissue before HT and after HT. Cancer cells try to outsmart every medication that you introduce into the body against them. That is why, I believe, HT should be introduced later rather than sooner in systemic disease, unless it is part of adjuvant therapy as in radiation/HT. This is just my lay opinion.
Posted 11/24/2012 1:31 PM (GMT 0)
" Discovered:
How Advanced Cancer Cells Outwit Hormonal Therapy
Volume 9, Winter 2013

Hormonal therapy can be effective for many years in controlling advanced prostate cancer. But it does not keep cancer in check forever. One reason is that as the cancer grows and changes, it develops cells that become resistant to male hormones, also called androgens. Hormone-resistant, also called "castration resistant," cancers are very difficult to kill.

Now, scientist Jun Luo, Ph.D., has discovered a major secret to advanced cancer’s evolution: The androgen receptor – a genetic lock, for which androgens are the key – is rendered useless. Imagine a key, perfectly suited for a particular lock – and suddenly, the keyhole is missing.

In exciting work published in the journal, Cancer Research, Luo and colleagues have discovered that some advanced cancer genes splice, and when they do, they shed the androgen receptor binding site – creating cancer cells that cannot be affected by hormones, because they no longer speak that language. There is no lock for the key. In other words, some advanced cancer cells evolve in such a way that they’re one step ahead of the drugs designed to kill them. "New drugs developed for the treatment of castration-resistant prostate cancer, such as abiraterone, are designed to suppress signaling of the androgen receptor," says Luo. "Specifically, these drugs target one particular area of the androgen receptor called the ligand-binding domain. But when these variant cells evolve, they don’t have that particular domain." Because these streamlined cancer cells don’t have the intended target of the drugs designed to kill them, they are suddenly "drug-resistant."

Luo and colleagues have discovered
that some advanced cancer genes splice,
and when they do,
they shed the androgen receptor binding site
– creating cancer cells that
cannot be affected by hormones,
because they no longer speak that language.


"Indeed," says Luo, "as prostate cancer cells adapt to these drugs, they shift to produce more of these variant cells, and their whole mechanism of sustaining cell growth changes, as well." These rapidly adapting prostate tumor cells escape hormonal therapy unscathed. "What we hope to do next is to learn how frequently and how quickly this molecular shift occurs in men receiving hormonal therapy, and work with others to develop new ways to overcome this drug resistance."
urology.jhu.edu/newsletter/2013/prostate_cancer_2013_15.php

Post Edited (HOPENEVERDIE) : 11/25/2012 8:02:40 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/24/2012 1:53 PM (GMT 0)
prostate-cancer.org/beating-prostate-cancer-with-hormonal-therapy/
This is the original link from Dr. Myers (2007)

Post Edited (robertC) : 11/24/2012 7:02:03 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/24/2012 3:22 PM (GMT 0)

SpecialLady said...
I believe HT kills cancer cells, just like a plant would wilt without water, however, those cells that are not killed over time acquire ability through mutations to reproduce further. This was also described by pathologists who find different protein expressions in prostate tissue before HT and after HT. Cancer cells try to outsmart every medication that you introduce into the body against them. That is why, I believe, HT should be introduced later rather than sooner in systemic disease, unless it is part of adjuvant therapy as in radiation/HT. This is just my lay opinion.

I concur.
Posted 11/24/2012 3:23 PM (GMT 0)
WW:

I don't think there is any doubt that HT kills cancer cells, since it removes their food so those are hormone sensitive die. But unfortunately a percentage of cells are not hormone sensitive.

Mel

Posted 11/24/2012 3:29 PM (GMT 0)
RobertC:

Interesting article - thanks for the link.
Posted 11/24/2012 5:23 PM (GMT 0)
HT is really a palliative rather than a curative treatment. It deprive the PC cells of their food, testosterone and early on kills much of the PC in the body. Then the little buggers figure out how to live without the testosterone and eat other stuff and that's when the HT fails to control PC.

HT won't cure a man but will keep the PC at bay for a very long time (years) so it's a worthy treatment and with other drugs coming into use a man with advanced PC has every hope that someday the medical community will find a cure for advanced PC (i.e allow a man to live long enough to die of something else).

All the more reason to find about at PC at an early stage when curative treatments will work.
All the best,
Andrew
Posted 11/24/2012 5:34 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the replies.

I understand androgen sensitive versus androgen insensitive cells.

I was just wondering if HT simply shrinks the cells by removing the fuel, sort of like a tick without blood, or if it actually kills them.

RobertC, thanks for making the link clickable.

SpecialLady... if reference to "later rather than sooner," wouldn't it be easier to kill the cells while there are fewer of them? Interesting statement.
Posted 11/24/2012 6:29 PM (GMT 0)
 That is why, I believe, HT should be introduced later rather than sooner in systemic disease, unless it is part of adjuvant therapy as in radiation/HT.

how do you come to this conclusion?  in some cases HT can work many years -- more than 10.  you may not get the same results if the cancer has spread to the bones and organs.

ed

Posted 11/24/2012 7:20 PM (GMT 0)

MsWorryWart said...
Thanks for the replies.

I understand androgen sensitive versus androgen insensitive cells.

I was just wondering if HT simply shrinks the cells by removing the fuel, sort of like a tick without blood, or if it actually kills them.

RobertC, thanks for making the link clickable.

SpecialLady... if reference to "later rather than sooner," wouldn't it be easier to kill the cells while there are fewer of them? Interesting statement.

In the earlier stages there are other ways to kill them.
Posted 11/24/2012 7:56 PM (GMT 0)
There is no question that HT kills cancer cells. about 30% of patients that have no treatment other than HT go into long term remission with no sign of cancer by psa or imaging biopsies. So if it didn't kill cancer cells where did the tumor go? Liebowitz published data that 93% of his G6 patients were cured with one 13 month course of HT.
There are some androgen independent cells that HT will not kill; these eventually build a resistance and are able to thrive with very little testostorne. According to Myers about 1 in every million cells will eventually mutate from androgen dependent to androgen independent. This is why most oncologists recommend HT as early as possible to kill these cells before they mutate.
JT
Posted 11/24/2012 7:56 PM (GMT 0)
Foxrun,

I appreciate that. My husband's wasn't caught early, hence my interest in HT.
He did have IMRT with HT, so we're hoping that did some major take out. :)
Posted 11/24/2012 8:07 PM (GMT 0)
MSWW,

I think Myers sums it up best in the link provided.  I subscribe to that.  He would surely not go with the notion of introducing it later rather sooner in systemic disease.  He is one of the best at using the weapon of HT.  So yes, his weapon kills PC...at least some.

I often think about this question. I sometimes think that after 60+years of HT...they would have found a way to allow it to work for a lifetime.  But, it is a very complicated matter I'm sure.  That would be a huge reward for all the guys dealing with all the side effects of HT. 

The other way to look at it is --- several non-hormonal cancers can't benefit from this type of therapy.  They are very limited to what they can use (chemo, radiation, etc...).  HT provides so much to PC patients, despite the side effects.  It provides years to men...like 2-20 years... for most 70, 80 year olds...the math adds up.  For us 40,50,60 year olds --- not so much...but we work with doctors that try other strategies and we wait for newer therapies...and amazingly they appear (Provenge, Zytiga, Xtandi, etc...) 

Jerry L.

 

Posted 11/24/2012 9:27 PM (GMT 0)
Dr. Walsh, in his book, covers this issue extensively...

He feels that PC cells that are androgen dependent are indeed killed when testosterone is removed..But all PC victims have a certain number of PC cells that are refractory right from the start. They don't need testosterone to reproduce..It is the percentage of these two cell types that determines how well ADT will work and for how long..A good yardstick is how low the PSA drops after ADT is started...
Posted 11/24/2012 9:56 PM (GMT 0)

MsWorryWart said...
Foxrun,

I appreciate that. My husband's wasn't caught early, hence my interest in HT.
He did have IMRT with HT, so we're hoping that did some major take out. :)

I hear ya and the best of luck to you and your husband.
Posted 11/25/2012 3:19 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks again for the replies.

Also hoping to hear from some who claim HT doesn't kill prostate cancer cells...unless they meant it doesn't kill the androgen insensitive cells.
Posted 11/25/2012 4:27 AM (GMT 0)
Mrs WW,

"Also hoping to hear from some who claim HT doesn't kill prostate cancer cells...unless they meant it doesn't kill the androgen insensitive cells."

I believe we heard from them above.

My uro and oncologist are clear that HT is pallative, and will fail, probably sooner than later. It takes away food (testosterone) that is best-liked and most easily used by PCa cells. It does not "kill" them. It allows the weakest to starve to death. The stronger adapt, and come back. Partly because my PSA was realtively low in comparison to the tumor load, they believe my PCa will go refractory very quickly. That is why we attempted to go chemo first, but my insurance would not pay for it.

Posted 11/25/2012 11:57 AM (GMT 0)
MsWorryWart, I don't have any wisdom to pass along; however, I wish your husband the best in this battle!  Good luck!

Much blessings,

Aimzee

Posted 11/25/2012 2:55 PM (GMT 0)
My own thought is that HT does kill about 99% of the prostate cancer cells. The 99% that are killed then have no opportunity to mutate into androgen-insensitive cells over time.
HT does not help all patients. But it helps some a lot.
Posted 11/25/2012 4:06 PM (GMT 0)
142,

Just kidding with you on this,  ---> cells that are starving to death sounds like there being killed by HT.  If you don't feed your goldfish and he dies...did you kill the goldfish...

MSWW - How is your husband doing?

Thanks,

JL

 

Posted 11/25/2012 4:20 PM (GMT 0)
In Dr. Strum's book they show scans of PCa mets patients, whom after doing HT therapies the later scannings showed dramatic reductions and less visible mets found, thus it must be dimishing the amount of PCa cells.

Also, DES and other estrogenic drugs (estradiol patches or gels, or emcyt) can have a direct apoptosis effect on PCa cells, even some hprca cells as mentioned in this article from 2003 Journal of Urology, link also to be posted herein to the whole abstract, mentioning superior results over bicalutimide, bone improvement vs. losses from other HT therapies and cognitive pluses for estrogens too.

Diethylstilbestrol has been found to have in vitro cytotoxicity
against prostate cancer cell lines at physiological doses.
9, 56 In these studies DES was the active metabolite that
induced the cytotoxic effects seen in vitro.9 It has also been
demonstrated that DES has antitumor activity in previously
orchiectomized individuals with recurrent prostate cancer,
likely mediated through its ability to induce apoptosis in
hormone insensitive cells.8 In fact, the induction of apoptosis
by DES is somewhat dependent on the androgen sensitivity
state of the prostate cancer cell. Androgen insensitive prostate
cancer cells were more susceptible to apoptotic induction
by DES than androgen sensitive cells.8 This effect is not
mediated through the estrogen receptor, but involves alternative
mechanistic pathways. DES is also known to have a
direct antimicrotubular effect on prostate cancer.57, 58 It is
these direct effects that help explain the benefits (decreasing
prostate specific antigen) of 1 mg DES when patients treated
by LH-RH agonists/orchiectomy have disease relapse. Therefore,
castrate levels of testosterone may not be necessary in
men on DES treatment for prostate cancer.

Link abstract: www.ffyates.com/prostate/des.pdf  
Posted 11/25/2012 8:30 PM (GMT 0)
Jerry,

Yeah, end result, I agree. And I expected some flack for my trial balloon. smilewinkgrin

But because of a test I was involved in with a drug that should actually attach to the PCa cell and kill it by breaking down the linings, I make the distinction. That did not work out for me, but it brought me to consider a lot of the SEs from HT that we talk about.

I think that if we want to talk about "killing" cancer, it should be a direct and focused thing without other impact, not as HT does it, by a fairly devastating change to our overall body which carries, as a desirable side effect, the eventual death of some percentage of the cells by starvation.

Not so much a matter of the destination, but the path taken to arrive.

So from the 100,000 foot view, they are the same, but living in the trenches, maybe not so much.

Just my technical side trying to come out -

 

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