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fasting until noon?

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Posted 2/5/2015 3:53 AM (GMT 0)
This is my first time on any forum. husband has advanced prostate ca with mets to the bones almost everywhere except skull, feet and hands. CT is negative for anything except left ureter is partially blocked due to ca reaching out from prostate to bladder wall. we found this out last feb. 2014. started lurpon inj. which worked for awhile and now on Xtandi oral med for 2 months now plus lupron inj. every 3 months.
when we first found out about the ca, people gave us all kinds of "cures". one was to fast so that the ca cells couldn't be nourished. one cure was to grate lemon rinds and eat them. my husband asked the dr. and they didn't comment much about the fasting, etc. i am concerned that the fasting isn't good for him. he is supposed to stay active and he is trying to do that. i see him getting weaker and more tired and his thinking is spotty at times. his voice has changed too. i want to be supportive but feel he should not be fasting. anybody else have this going on?
Posted 2/5/2015 4:01 AM (GMT 0)
Donna, sorry to read the news. Can not give you any advice but know that I am thinking of you guys. I know other advanced guys will be able to let you know what has worked for them. Best wishes for you guts.

Cajun Jeff
Posted 2/5/2015 4:07 AM (GMT 0)
thank you C.J.
Posted 2/5/2015 1:27 PM (GMT 0)
Donna, I would seem to think the doctors didn't want to comment so as not take any amount of "hope" away. The Lupron is taking the "fuel" away from the ca cells. The rest of the cells need a healthy diet to help with fighting disease. It's often been mentioned to follow the "Heart Healthy Diet" for Pca, that's what I would do. Your husband does need to be active to maintain muscle mass amongst other things so a good diet would be obvious to me, I think fasting in this case is a crock. That's only my opinion, best of luck and stay on the forum. We are here to help!

Cheers, Doug
Posted 2/5/2015 2:44 PM (GMT 0)
I am with Doug on this one. Let the Lupron deprive the cp from its daily feed. The body requires a good and healthy diet to enable it to fight the cancer. I don't think any doctor would like to comment on any "alternative" forms of treatment outside the medical field. That is just not the way they roll.
Posted 2/5/2015 4:11 PM (GMT 0)
Waytogodonna,

The statement that has been made several times here, that testosterone is "food" for prostate cancer cells, is not literally true. Prior to developing "castrate resistance" prostate cancer cells require molecules of androgens (testosterone, etc.) to be attached to "receptor" sites on the cell in order to undergo cell division and growth. Deprived of testosterone cancer cells can't divide and tumors won't grow -- at least not at first. After a while some of the cells will mutate so they can divide without testosterone (this is how castrate resistant disease works).

But the testosterone does not provide energy to the cells. It doesn't literally "feed" them. It just stimulates them to grow.

Which leads to the question: is there a way to actually deprive cancer cells of energy? The idea isn't absurd on the face of things. Cancer cells are much less efficient in using available energy than are normal cells. This is believed to be caused by the disruption of the function of their mitochondria. There have been studies with mice under some very controlled conditions, that showed that diet can make very significant changes in the rate at which prostate cancer progressed.

Your husband's fasting until noon diet is probably intended to extend the period of dietary ketosis -- a state that most people experience early in the morning -- later into the day. Not a bad idea on the face of things if he gets enough nutrition later in the day, but definitely something to talk to his doctors about.

Here are some links to studies about the potential of diet as an adjunct to prostate cancer treatments:

Nutrition, dietary interventions and prostate cancer: the latest evidence (Various authors from Duke Medical Center, Durham NC and UCLA School of Medicine, Los Angeles, CA)

Low-Carbohydrate Diets and Prostate Cancer: How Low Is “Low Enough”? (Various authors from Duke Medical Center, Durham NC)

Ketogenic diets as an adjuvant cancer therapy: History and potential mechanism(Various authors from Holden Comprehensive Cancer Center, University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA)

Hopefully they can provide something more scientific for him to discuss with his doctors:
Posted 2/5/2015 5:24 PM (GMT 0)
Just as I was about to suggest exercise and eating right I read the paper that PeterDisAbelard linked above. Here is an excerpt:

"...These data support the hypothesis that cancer cells are reliant on increased glucose consumption to maintain redox homeostasis due to increased one electron reductions of O2 to form O2•− and H2O2 in mitochondria. This divergence from normal cell metabolism has sparked a growing interest in targeting mitochondrial oxygen metabolism as a means of selectively sensitizing cancer cells to therapy [5–17]. In this regard, dietary modifications, such as high-fat, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets that enhance mitochondrial oxidative metabolism while limiting glucose consumption could represent a safe, inexpensive, easily implementable, and effective approach to selectively enhance metabolic stress in cancer cells versus normal cells."

"A ketogenic diet consists of high fat, with moderate to low protein content, and very low carbohydrates, which forces the body to burn fat instead of glucose for adenosine triphosphate (ATP) synthesis. Generally, the ratio by weight is 3:1 or 4:1 fat to carbohydrate+protein, yielding a diet that has an energy distribution of about 8% protein, 2% carbohydrate, and 90% fat."

90% fat! Will that diet "cure" PCa by encouraging heart disease to kill the patient?
I don't know.

You taught us all something today.
Jeff
Posted 2/5/2015 5:46 PM (GMT 0)
Hi to everyone who posted to the "fasting until noon". I'm pretty unsure about what is the right way, if any, to advise my husband. I think i'll just support his daily decisions. Quality of life is really important also. Without the testosterone liked he used to have in his body, emotions are flowing more freely. I'm here to support however it goes. thanks, all of you.
Posted 2/5/2015 5:52 PM (GMT 0)
Jeff,

A "ketogenic" diet has been an accepted treatment for intractable epilepsy in children and young adults since the 1920s. Repeated studies have failed to show any increased cardiac mortality or morbidity in that group, admittedly mostly youngish.

Recent studies have broadened that investigation into the use of very-low-carb diets to treat other conditions (the list of diseases where it seems to at least help is surprisingly long). Here's a fairly good review: Beyond weight loss: a review of the therapeutic uses of very-low-carbohydrate (ketogenic) diets
Posted 2/5/2015 5:59 PM (GMT 0)
Donna, while I don't agree with the fasting aspect, I 100% agree that the best route is to support his decisions. He has a lot on his plate right now and would rather have empathy than friction. Low testosterone can cause irritation, emotional roller coaster and confusion, amongst other things. Keep supporting him!

Cheers, Doug
Posted 2/5/2015 6:10 PM (GMT 0)
Donna,

Sorry if I hijacked your thread a bit. I do tend to nerd out sometimes and can be hard to stop.
Posted 2/6/2015 3:14 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Peter "moderator". i am very ok with your reply. I am a nurse by profession and understand quite a bit of "nerd" stuff. lol! Being a nurse is a two edged sword though....I know too much and yet not enough. I am so appreciative of this forum.....more than you know. I feel for all of you going through this too. I think my husband is the most courageous man ever. I knew I had a good one when I married him 47 yrs ago!
Posted 2/6/2015 3:31 AM (GMT 0)
I see nothing wrong in fasting and has inspired me to do a 36 hour fast once a week. Eat dinner, bed early @ 7pm 24 hours later back to bed up in the morning and break fast with oatmeal and blue berries. Eat lightly the rest of the day, then back to regular eat what i want. I did it back in the day, maintaining a strong fitness regimen on the fasting day, as well. Way to go Donna, after 47 years, I reckon you got this marriage shtick down nicely. Congrats
Posted 2/7/2015 2:48 AM (GMT 0)
hi logo, good to hear from you. Fasting is OK I guess. I think each person knows his own body better than anyone else. This whole thing is a journey in uncharted waters for hank and me. It's good to know what other people have done and what they think. Don't feel quite so alone that way. Really hard on me tonight though....with so much mets and the meds, really saw how much his body has changed and how he struggles with it tonight as I was helping him with a sponge bath. we have our shower out now because we are getting the tile redone. he is keeping active though by doing the demolition work on the shower before the tile man comes next week. it gives him purpose and he knows it will be in good shape for me. he doesn't do the computer or he might be on here too.....but i kind of doubt it. i'm glad that he shares his feelings with me but i don't think he shares all of them.
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