Personal Experience with Diet and Exercise

Jack and Diane are concerned about eating poultry (from "Boosting the Immune System" thread).

<< Wow! I'm watching this now (movie) and it is shocking! I knew we needed to change his diet
to avoid red meat and dairy but I had no idea chicken/poultry was so dangerous as far as PCa.

They just said eating poultry increases the risk of recurrence by 4 times.

Here's the part of the movie I just heard. Is this true? What can he eat? Is fish ok or does it
have to be just plant based?

"MEN WITH A HIGH PROGNOSTIC RISK AND A HIGH POULTRY INTAKE HAD A 4-FOLD
INCREASED RISK OF RECURRENCE OR PROGRESSION" >>


Diane,

The "4-fold" is for men who had "High Prognostic Risk" (either Gleason 8-10, PSA> 20 ng/mL,
or stage T3a) AND who had about 5.5 servings per week of poultry. This was compared to
men with Gleason 7 or less, lower PSAs, lower staging AND, who had one serving/week.

What the cluck? Is it really the chicken that they should be worrying about?

Small amounts of chicken breast, w/o skin, is likely a non factor. You want organic,
pasture-raised chicken . . which have less arachidonic acid than your conventional,
non-union member, chicken. White meat w/o skin is about 20% fat, while dark meat
w/o skin is about twice that.

And 'wild caught" fish also have less arachidonic acid, and are a non issue as well.

Cashless

cashlessclay said...
BillyBob asks... Diet: Soy helpful in fight against PC?

BillyBob, I had the same question about soy in 2013.
There is a lot of mixed data concerning soy. So, this is what I did.
After recurrence (post surgery and SRT), I modified my diet and
followed my PSA using the Labcorp ultrasensitive test.

Period A (6 months, 3/21/2013 till 9/19/2013) the diet included soy almost daily.
Period B (3 months, 9/20/2013 till 12/18/2013 the above diet, WITHOUT soy.
Period C (6 months, 12/19/2013 till 6/25/2014) used the first diet with soy every day.

Then I calculated the PSADT for each of the three periods.

Does anyone feel that the above experiment is flawed?
Is it "anecdotal" and therefore "useless"?
Is it only valid for my DNA?
Is the "signal to noise" of Labcorp's test too small to draw conclusions?
Are the test periods too short?

If you think the above experiment is of little value . . . please speak up.

Cashless

Thanks Cashless! "Then I calculated the PSADT for each of the three periods.". OK, what were the results?

cashlessclay said...
Looks like we have some unanswered questions here
concerning the value of soy to the diet.

For the 6 month period A, with soy in diet,
PSA went from 0.067 to 0.073, or a PSADT of about 48 months.

For the 3 month period B, without soy in diet,
PSA went from 0.073 to 0.093, or a PSADT of about 8+ months.

For the 6 month period C, with soy back in the diet,
PSA went from 0.093 to 0.094, or a PSADT of many years.
Note: the PSA measurement error, is larger than the difference in
Period C, so can't get too excited.

For the next 3 months I added a smoothie 60/40 veg to fruit in the AM.
PSA went from 0.94 to 0.126, for a PSADT of about 7 months.

Does anyone really believe that diet doesn't matter?

Cashless

Thx, good info, very interesting!

Cashless -

I use unsweetened organic soymilk on oatmeal, "barely sweet granola" and in coffee. It is (quite by chance) fortified.

1 cup offers 50% daily recommended B12, 30% calcium, 30% vitamin D, 30% B2 and others...

I eat more fruit and more carbs than you, but zero meat, dairy, added sweeteners or sweetened foods.

Quality "soil" to delay secondary therapy - but one never knows what the next PSA result will be -

Thanks for your leadership -

Wilderness.

cashlessclay said...
Earlier this year, in reference to dietary changes, I said: "If I make a
mistake, PSADT doesn't go from 5 years to 4 years: It's likely going
back to 7 months."

Well, looks like I made another mistake. Oatmeal for breakfast with
walnuts, a few raspberries, and about 4 oz of almond milk was a fixture
in my cancer diet. The PSADT was about 5 years for that diet. I went
to 6-7 oz of milk to add some calcium to the diet (milk is fortified), and
the PSADT went to 8.6 months. I then went the other way, using about
2-3 oz of almond milk, and I just got the result two days ago. The PSA
actually went down, albeit slightly. Can't over emphasize the importance
of getting breakfast right in any cancer fighting diet.

Could we have a "Zero growth" prostate cancer diet with this change?
Much too early to say, but that is the ultimate objective.

Cashless

That is why I made the change to Almond milk quite a while back, just one of many changes, though not a lot of "proof" for any of them. Still, if adding or removing a food is easily done, if I like the foods OK and especially don't hate them, and there are rumors that they are helpful, I figure why not? After all, I've got to eat something. Might as well, when I can do so relatively easily, eat what ever has at least a modicum of evidence that it is helpful.
/nutritionfacts.org/video/prostate-cancer-and-organic-milk-vs-almond-milk/

/nutritionfacts.org/video/treating-advanced-prostate-cancer-with-diet-part-2/

Gear said...
I was using Almond milk but have shied away from it due to its Vitamin E profile.

Gear, I'm curious about what is the problem with Almond milk's Vitamin E profile? I actually eat walnuts frequently, one reason because they are a good source of Vitamin E, particularly E2. (I think that is why I added them, if mem serves)

Gear said...
BillyBob, As a qualifier my nutrition knowledge is quite limited and my files, if any, are at home, but as I recall Almonds are high in Alpha type E compound which is less desirable form of the vitamin as it depletes the gamma type of vitamin E which is a so called cancer fighter. I think walnuts (which I take) had very low Alpha and a high Gamma profile. Synesthetic E are also the Alpha E type, not exact same Alpha as natural but close. So I was looking at it like Omega 6 and 3's... too many 6's seem bad. I will still drink Almond milk, but since I may drink it few times every day I wanted to attempt to balance out the numbers by also using other milks. BTW... soy milk and rice milk have their own possible problems, so also not perfect. My target is the Cows milk...... but then there is ice cream... which is physically impossible to stop eating forever

I had some ice cream last night!

I had the same thinking on the walnuts, trying to get more gamma and or E2(whatever the heck the difference is, not sure right now, whatever). But I had not thought of the almonds as an actual problem, just not as much of the good stuff I was shooting for. I'm thinking with a natural food, even if the walnuts have more alpha, they probably don't have that by itself, so even if alpha depletes gamma, if there is at least some gamma in the almond, it is probably OK. Maybe? I'd have to go look it up again to make sure. Anyway, like you I prefer the walnuts for vitamin E related reasons or at least theories.

However, I have no idea how that whole bad vit E vs good vit E thingy plays out in the product known as almond milk. Or if it matters. I just looked on the carton of my Almond Milk. It said great source of calcium, vitamin D and E. Down in the list of ingredients, I see after almond milk as 1st ingredient, I see D2 and Alpha E(natural). Which I think means they are adding alpha E! sigh. I wonder if in the study I link to showing almond milk decreasing PC growth 60% in the lab vs organic milk increasing growth, if they used a brand with added alpha E? It is probably killing me.

I am aware of the controversies over Soy. Some say good, some say bad, for overall health or specifically PCa. I don't often use the milk, but I do use a soy protein powder added to my almond milk a few times a week. Good, bad or neutral? I don't know. Some say it boosts estrogen in men, not a good thing overall. Others say it is a week estrogen which binds to our estrogen receptors preventing our natural(and stronger) estrogen production from occupying those receptors and having an even worse result. I don't know. Adding to the many things which I wish there were definitive studies to tell us good or bad. Since there are not, Cashless Clay serves as a good guinea pig for us. Thx Cashless!

The more that I look into Vitamin E (the gamma-tocotrienol form),
the more interesting it becomes.

" Our results suggested that the antiproliferative effect of γ-tocotrienol
act through multiple-signalling pathways, and demonstrated for the
first time the anti-invasion and chemosensitisation effect of γ-tocotrienol
against PCa cells. "

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2600692/


Table 1 shows a very strong antiproliferative effect against the PC-3 cell line.

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2600692/table/tbl1/

They also looked at metastasis . . .

" Although γ-T3 has been shown to have antiproliferation effect on many
cancers, it is not clear if it affects cancer metastasis. Therefore, we examined
whether γ-T3 could suppress the invasive ability of the prostate cancer cells. "

and found . . .

" These results indicate that γ-T3 is able to inhibit the invasion ability of PCa
cells, independent to their cytotoxic effects. "

Interesting indeed.

Cashless

Thanks Gear!

The palm oil reference was to gamma tocotrienol, which may
suppress both prostate cancer cell proliferation and invasion.

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2600692/

The table gives values for alpha and gamma tocopherol and gamma
tocopherol may have its own benefits as indicated here:

". . . dietary gamma-tocopherol, the most commonly consumed
form of vitamin E in the United States, was significantly inversely related
to the risk of advanced prostate cancer (for highest versus lowest quintile:
RR, 0.68 . . ."

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17548674

Also worth noting . . . alpha-tocopherol may deplete gamma-tocopherol.

. . . "The importance of considering gamma-tocopherol in human nutrition is
underscored by reports that supplementation with alpha-tocopherol in doses
of 200-1,200 IU per day decreased serum levels of gamma-tocopherol by
accelerating its metabolism.2,11,12,13 As suggested below, it is possible
that some of the adverse effects attributed to long-term vitamin E
supplementation are due to alpha-tocopherol-induced gamma-tocopherol
depletion. . . . "

Cashless

One month ago, I posted on how adding extra milk to an oatmeal breakfast
crashed an otherwise good diet. Another PSA test taken this week supports
that premise. My last three PSA tests are: 0.461, 0.448, and 0.455 this week.

When I'm "on diet" I get pretty tight numbers for consecutive PSA tests:

0.067, 0.065, 0.073
0.093, 0.101, 0.094
0.203, 0.208, 0.211
0.378, 0.372, 0.390
0.461, 0.448, 0.455

When I'm "off diet" I get gap increases in PSA, consistent with my "natural
doubling time" (no diet intervention), of about 7 months.


So, what does experimenting with diet and exercise for almost five years tell me?

One: the Labcorp ultrasensitive PSA test is a very consistent tool that can be
used to refine a diet that works for the user.

Two: diet and exercise can have a real effect on prostate cancer growth rate.
(I realize that more aggressive cancers than my Gleason 6 to 7 will be more
difficult to deal with, if at all.)

Three: there is not much middle ground with diets: I either get a PSADT of
several to many years, or I get about 7 months. "Moderation" has not worked
for me.

Cashless

Denis, I put something together here quickly (cut and paste).
I'm going out in a few minutes and will be tied up for about
a week. Hope this helps for now.

Thanks, Cashless


Diet is vegan + (wild) seafood (except clams) - fast carbs
+soy. The idea is to avoid insulin and iron spikes and add
some soy often.

Breakfast is steel cut oatmeal (not soaked, little almond
milk and with walnuts).

I start lunch and dinner with a cold dish with lots of
raw vegetables, especially broccoli and broccoli sprouts,
cauliflower, red peppers, onions, cucumbers, tomatoes,
mushrooms, carrots, kale, fresh sprouts (lentils, peas,
beans). I have it with hummus containing
olive oil, and add turmeric spice, ground black
pepper, rosemary, and oregano to the hummus.

Maybe a soup (no beef or chicken stock) here.

Next is either a hot or another cold dish. My hot
meals have a large Asian influence since the
lady of the house is Asian. These dishes
have two or more from: garlic, ginger,
red peppers, thai basil, spring onions. The main
components are usually something like eggplant
and king mushrooms, bok choy and shiitake
mushrooms, or tofu and mushrooms.

An Cold dishes are made with rice vinegar,
sesame oil and soy sauce. Any thing green
and not moving goes into the cold dish.

Sugar and other fast carbs are something I watch
very carefully, and believe can nullify all other
attempts to control cancer growth. I have wild
caught salmon/herring frequently, no meat,
no eggs and only "trace" amounts of dairy.

I view the diet and exercise routine as a form of "Adaptive Therapy".
Adaptive therapy is treating the cancer as a chronic illness rather
than something to be eradicated. This assumes that all curative
attempts have been exhausted. And diet and exercise would likely be
ineffective for more aggressive cancers.

"Hitting cancer with all you have" . . . starts the natural selection process
of evolutionary theory, where populations adapt to extreme challenges.
The cells within the tumor may mutate, and no longer respond to treatment,
a condition called "acquired resistance".

Cashless

Pratoman, eating out is hard . . . but, I find that Thai works for me.

I get the mixed seafood soup, hot and spicy broth with
lemon grass, sometimes called called "Pok Tak" or "Tum Yum Talay".

A papaya salad works, tell the waiter "no sugar" and no MSG.

Finally, a red curry with vegetables, with or without soft
(steamed, not fried) tofu. Also, I ask for brown rice and not white.

Cashless

Pratoman, that's correct I do not eat eggs. I really don't have
evidence that egg whites are either good nor bad for cancer.

Below is a reference suggesting that both yolks and egg whites is
not a good idea, but I don't see any evidence that points to the
whites alone being an issue.

www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/ask/ask-the-expert-eggs

Cashless

Much of the fish in most any fish market is wild-caught. Commonly farm raised are tilapia, catfish, salmon. What else? We can always find wild-caught salmon here at a premium price.

For restaurants I go vegan or order fish (not fried) and healthy vegetable choices. There's usually something tasty.

No eggs for me either. So much good food available that is diet-compliant.

Wilderness.