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Posted 1/14/2016 1:29 AM (GMT 0)
RCS, well you could make a few dozen muffins and pack them in your suitcase?
Posted 1/14/2016 2:26 AM (GMT 0)
@BillyBob - very interesting thanks for posting.
It does bring up a question that I've been thinking about.... where it says....

"CONCLUSIONS:
Six grams of beta-glucan from oats added to the AHA Step II diet and moderate physical activity improved lipid profile and caused a decrease in weight and, thus, reduced the risk of cardiovascular events in overweight male individuals with mild to moderate hypercholesterolemia. The diet with added beta-glucan was well accepted and tolerated."

The question being, what is the endpoint? Is it lowering HDL? or is it lowering the chance of a (or of another) cardiac event? And the bigger, more important question... are they in fact the same thing. Beause some things i've read say they are not. I am not arguing, i just dont know.

The other question is how do you get the oat derived beta glucan if you want to try it. Which brings me to RCS comment - so are you buying store bought muffins? or making them, and if so with what ingredients that you are assured they contain the beta glucan? Maybe dumb questions, but I'm serious. Because i dont know that i want to trust the makers of the supplement, that i found on Google...

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Oat+derived+beta-glucan&tbm=shop
Posted 1/14/2016 3:00 AM (GMT 0)

RCS said...
BillyBob,

Thanks for posting the article!

I currently eat two oat bran muffins a day. Based on my recipe, and the numbers I found on line, I figure I get about 4.4 grams of beta-glucan per day from the oat bran ..... guess I'll try eating three to get to 6 grams.

There is about 3 times as much beta-glucan in oat bran than there is in oatmeal.

A caution .... eating this much bran does have a side effect ... for me it is a positive .... absolutely no constipation .... unless I am traveling and can not get oat bran .... then!?!?

www.pathway27.eu/topstory/beta-glucan/

Great, thx for that info. I guess you can buy oat bran at any grocery store? Just by coincidence, I have been eating muffins my wife made from the All Bran I take to stay regular. But maybe I can switch that to oat bran? I could use an HDL boost myself! (if it actually works like the study)
Posted 1/14/2016 3:32 AM (GMT 0)

Pratoman said...
@BillyBob - very interesting thanks for posting.
It does bring up a question that I've been thinking about.... where it says....

"CONCLUSIONS:
Six grams of beta-glucan from oats added to the AHA Step II diet and moderate physical activity improved lipid profile and caused a decrease in weight and, thus, reduced the risk of cardiovascular events in overweight male individuals with mild to moderate hypercholesterolemia. The diet with added beta-glucan was well accepted and tolerated."

The question being, what is the endpoint? Is it lowering HDL? or is it lowering the chance of a (or of another) cardiac event? And the bigger, more important question... are they in fact the same thing. Beause some things i've read say they are not. I am not arguing, i just dont know.

The other question is how do you get the oat derived beta glucan if you want to try it. Which brings me to RCS comment - so are you buying store bought muffins? or making them, and if so with what ingredients that you are assured they contain the beta glucan? Maybe dumb questions, but I'm serious. Because i dont know that i want to trust the makers of the supplement, that i found on Google...

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Oat+derived+beta-glucan&tbm=shop

Hey Prato, I have the same question as you regarding how you can get this beta-glucan, but going by RCS post it is just a part of oat bran, and I am currently researching that. I am already planning on adding ground flax seed to my diet, and looks like I might be adding some oat bran for hopefully an HDL boost. First thing I've read about that boosted HDL other than saturated fat or maybe any fat or low carb.

As for the endpoint, did you mean "raise HDL"? I'd say it was just "To investigate the effect of bread formulated with 6 g of beta-glucan (oat soluble fiber) on serum lipids in overweight normotensive subjects with mild to moderate hypercholesterolemia." And apparently it improved those lipids by doing the very unusual: boosting HDL, (which did not happen in Group B.) and looks like both groups improved(lowered) the other non-HDL lipids, "however, the beta-glucan fortified diet was significantly more effective".

Now, all of that is real good according to everything we have been told is good for the heart in recent years. Obviously, they even want to give us statin drugs to accomplish those same lowering of non-HDL lipids seen in this study, but I don't know what the heck they do to raise HDL. I just know they all seem to want to raise it(and lower the others). I'm sure "they" would pee themselves if they had a drug they could give us to raise HDL which didn't kill us with SEs. And if they had it they would be telling us to take it, SEs be danged, just like statins.

But does improving all of these lipids which they all claim are associated with heart disease, which all of these docs seem very interested in doing to the point that they insist we need to be on statins, actually increase our lifespans and heart attack/stroke free years? You got me, brother!
Posted 1/14/2016 3:40 AM (GMT 0)
Pratoman, Billybob,
I use oat bran bought at the super market.

Here's my recipe for 2 dozen muffins (adapted from "The 8-Week Cholestrol Cure" by Bob Kowalski):

4 1/2 cups oat bran
2 tablespoons baking powder
2 cups applesauce
1 cup soy milk
1 cup raisin/walnuts/dates etc
1 cup egg substitute
4 tablespoons canola oil

I also add 2 tablespoons of cinnamon because I like cinnamon and I felt the muffins were bland without it. I guess vanilla might also be good.

Preheat oven to 425 degrees. Mix all the stuff up. Put in paper bakin cups. Bake from 12 to 15 minutes.

Kowalski has other receipts for oat bran muffins (Apple Cinnamon, Banana Njt, Canned Fruit, Straberry, pineapple, pear, pumpkin, dinner, molasses, dinner rolls, cram-bran, bran brownies) in his book. He was a big advocate for oat bran.

/en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Kowalski

Halbert,
I actual did that many years ago. Now I dose up with colace and order all bran cereal at breakfast ..... The muffins didn't travel well!

Post Edited (RCS) : 1/13/2016 8:43:13 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/14/2016 4:02 AM (GMT 0)
OK, I just found another study that showed no effect on HDL:
ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/2/221.full though frankly I found the study a bit confusing, they gave some in bread and some in orange juice and talked about how results from studies have been all over the place- some with real good results and some doing nothing. They also talked about how the processing of the oats could effect the beta glucan in oats.

And I found this:
www.pathway27.eu/topstory/beta-glucan/

Somebody said...
Beta-glucan is a dietary fibre present typically in oats and barley. The beta-glucan content in whole grain oat varies from 2 to 8% of dry weight, whereas the beta-glucan content of oat bran concentrate is usually between 15 and 35% of dry weight.................

So looks like just one more thing I will have to do a personal study on. At least I like oats!

RCS, I know you were taking a lessor amount, but did you ever notice an effect on your HDL?
Posted 1/14/2016 12:45 PM (GMT 0)
BillyBob, that last paragraph in your post is the essence of what we all want to know. If we knew that was the case, many of us wouldn't need anything extreme like Ornish, just a healthy diet combined wth low dose statins.
Posted 1/14/2016 12:53 PM (GMT 0)
Billybob,

I tried a lot of things for HDL. Some of the things I tried (and are in Kowalski's book) have since been shown to not help (like niacin).

When I started trying to increase my HDL (early 1990's) my HDL was about 30. Today it is about 40.

What I've done over that time is loose weight (190 to 170 lbs.), exercise (walk and/or swim and lift light weights), eat mostly vegan, take fish oil (lowers my triglycerides) and eat my oat bran muffins. These suggestions came from Kowalski's book.

I can not tell you which one(s) increased my HDL. At the time I was willing to try anything to lower my LDL and raise my HDL so I added all of Kowalski's suggestions at the same time. Kind of like when I got PCa I knew I had to do something, but what? I wasn't going to study the problem for a long time, I was going to do something. So I hit it hard with everything at once.

I found statins (Lipitor) had the biggest impact on lowering my LDL. Unfortunately statins also seem to lower my HDL. But I still take statins because my overall my HDL to LDL ration improves while on statins.

My goal was to exceed the number of years my father lived (52) and his father (62). I am currently 69 years old ... so anecdotally Kowalski's cure has worked ..... so far.

Hope this helps.

Ps. I guess I should add, when I started down this path statins were not available and my primary focus was lowering LDL.

Post Edited (RCS) : 1/14/2016 6:10:50 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/15/2016 3:06 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Prato!

Sounds like you are doing really well! Just wanted to add a few comments since this is a topic where I think I can add some value to the discussion.

First, let me confess that I have not read all 130+ posts in this thread, so I'm hoping I'm not being redundant. Caldwell Esselstyn is on staff at the Cleveland Clinic. I've heard him, and his wife Ann (a food coach) speak many times. They are pretty amazing people. Their son, Rip, has also developed an eating plan called The Engine 2 Diet. Rip is a firefighter (hence the diet's name) and is able to thrive and survive the challenges of his profession on a plant based diet. They do an annual weekend conference at their family farm in Claverack, NY. (Google "Esselstyn Plant Stock Conference" for info & dates.). I think it's pretty pricey, but a life-changing event.

I've never met or heard Dean Ornish speak but they also do his program at the Clinic. It is very highly regarded and is considered a more holistic multi-pronged approach. I really don't think you can go wrong with it. The Clinic promotes this as a program that both Medicare & private insurance will cover.

I know people who have done either Essie's or Ornish's program with varying degrees of success. IMO, these programs require a degree of commitment that is pretty rare. Those who have the most success are the ones who are in a "last chance" type of situation. Their lives are on the line and if they don't make changes, their life expectancy can be measured in months and not years. Those with heart disease that is not currently life threatening seem to have more of a problem sticking with the program. I'm sure there are lots of exceptions to what I've witnessed, and I think you have the type of motivation that could make you one of those exceptions! At any rate, we'll be cheering for you from the sidelines.

Best of luck!
Suz
Posted 1/15/2016 3:51 AM (GMT 0)
I do know that a diet heavy on oats seems to improve the wool quality in my merino sheep. :)
Posted 1/15/2016 1:59 PM (GMT 0)
Suz, thanks very much. I'ver read some of Essyestyn's writings. And yes, he is all about diet while Ornish includes stress relief technicques, exercise, etc.
I appreciate you giving me too much credit. To be honest with myself, i am not so sure i could do it, EVEN with the stakes quite high. My eating habits have improved greatly over the last few years and even more so over the last 6-7 months, eating red meat maybe once a month, having fish for dinner, none of which i could do on Ornish, or Esselstyn, i get frustrated very often, and once in a while go off the rails.
Still i am trying my best to read through Ornish's book, although i've bee a bit distracted lately, but i will read it and either do Ornish (very long drive for me, nearest center is an hour WITHOUT traffic,) or try to put as much as possible into practice myself.
Posted 1/16/2016 5:44 AM (GMT 0)

sheepguy said...
I do know that a diet heavy on oats seems to improve the wool quality in my merino sheep. :)

Well, I could use some improvements for the wool on top of my head, or that should be there.
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