Baking soda and prostate cancer: what am I missing

In another prostate cancer site I belong to there is a big debate about the merits of taking baking soda (with or without molasses) to raise the pH of the tumer to kill it. Both sides of the issue focus on "on going scientific trials", testimonies, YouTube videos and the like. More often than not the responses degrade into name calling.

I have been trying to approach the issue in terms of chemistry. Based on that there is no way I can see talking baking soda having any effect on turmor growth. I have shown the basic (pardon the pun) chemical reactions that take place. This is followed with a request to show why the chemistry outlined is wrong. So far no response on why the reactions outlined are wrong, just statements that rely on people's fears and name calling.

I am posting below the arguments on this site that were posted on the other site stating why the chemistry does not work. I encourage fellow members to show me what I am missing.

Listed below is the chemistry that takes place when baking soda comes into contact with stomach acid. Can anyone show an alternative pathway? If so that would be great as I have advanced cancer and would take it if you can make the chemistry work.

When baking soda reaches the stomach it reacts with stomach acid to form salt and the very unstable carbonic acid. The newly formed carbonic acid rapidly decomposes into water and carbon dioxide. (Carbonic acid is what gives pop and more importantly beer its fiz.)

1) NaHCO3 +HCl ---> NaCl + [H2CO3]
2) [H2CO3] ---> H2O + CO2

That is why people take baking soda for upset stomachs. It neutralizes stomach acid and release pressure (why you burp when you take it). Thus before it leaves your stomach it decomposes into inert ingredients. While it does reduce stomach acid, taking Tums or Rollaids does a better job.

There is also no major reaction that can occur when you "pre-react" baking soda with molasses. At most you could rationalize that the baking soda will react with a more acidic proton on molasses. However, in doing so (if it occors) you will just form "salted" molasses, water and carbon dioxide. None of these will effect tumor growth.

3). (Molasses)-OH + NaHCO3 ---> (Molasses)-ONa + [H2CO3] ---> H2O + CO2

Thank you for your patence reading this note.

Dr WHO

all the chemistry you have presented is accurate. High intake of sodium bicarb will do two things. As Fairwind said, it will raise the sodium level in your body (but the kidneys will work slowly at correcting that). At the same time, the production of CO2 from bicarb interaction with stomach acid will remove protons (acid) from your system as they become sequestered into water- if you do not burp up the CO2, excess CO2 (not greatly soluble in the blood) will diffuse into RBC where it encounters the enzyme carbonic anhydrase, which very quickly recombines CO2 with H2O to make the bicarb ion, HCO3-. This ion is pumped out of the RBC in exchange for Cl- to keep charge balance, and the majority of CO2 in your body is transported in blood as the HCO3- ion. When blood reaches the lungs, any soluble CO2 diffuses out of the blood to alveoli, HCO3- moves into RBC (in exchange for Cl-) and is immediately converted to CO2 and H2O, and more CO2 diffuses out of the blood through the lungs. The lungs are pretty quick to dump excess CO2 in blood by this mechanism.


With the introduction of a lot of bicarb, a lot of protons in the stomach get sequestered into water molecules- overall, this can only raise the pH of the blood because of the loss of acid in the system. Normal pH of blood is 7.35-7.45, and as Fairwind said it is tightly regulated- variation outside this range starts to affect the structure of enzymes and receptors on cell surfaces, which will quickly destroy metabolic balance in the body- acidosis below 7.3 or alkalosis above 7.5 is a medical emergency requiring immediate intervention if the body is not able to correct the situation.

I cannot conceive of a mechanism for creating a locally alkalotic pH in a tumor tissue while maintaining blood pH in the 7.35-7.45 range.

rf

Dr who...yep yep. The conservation of mass and charge indicate exactly what would happen. Now, if you took NaHCO3 by IV, it might do some other things....but your body would deal with it pretty promptly.

The prevalence of this sort of nonsense really says more about the basic (pardon the pun) lack of basic science knowledge by the body politic than anything else. Even worse than the baking soda cure is the "treatment" where they throw the patient into insulin shock followed by a massive dose of chemo. I knew a guy who did that one. I think he lived for 3 months after that.

I don't think there is any "miracle cure". These cure-alls (baking soda, marijuana extract, lemon juice, etc.) are so widely published on the internet that is stands to reason that hundreds, if not thousands of cancer patients are trying it. Given the number of people that are likely trying it, I would think if any of these "treatments" had any sort of reliable proof of success the media could not help but make it widely known.

Just one of the many miracle cures that "doctors (or Big Pharma) don't want you to know." Yeah, right. If only it were that easy.

I also bought into the acid/alkaline theory to some degree. My limited understanding of it was that cancer had difficulty thriving in an alkaline environment. By testing my Ph levels on urine and saliva I came to the conclusion my body was very acidic. I then set about, through diet, loads of greens etc, and tried to improve the the situation. It seemed I couldn't eat enough greens. I then started drinking and cooking with water with a Ph around 10.3. This helped me get better readings from the urine and saliva samples I take. (The saliva sample usually come out around 7.3 and the urine is always less.)
Not very scientific, I agree. Does it make any difference to the cancer? I have no idea.
However, I get some peace of mind from knowing that I am doing what I can to help my situation.

Here's a better link to JP's article.

Drinking Baking Soda Could Be an Inexpensive, Safe Way to Combat Autoimmune Disease

And here's an abstract of the study itself: Oral NaHCO3 Activates a Splenic Anti-Inflammatory Pathway: Evidence That Cholinergic Signals Are Transmitted via Mesothelial Cells.

I will note that, while interesting, this study says nothing about cancer nor, as JP pointed out, does it imply anything particularly hopeful for cancer. If anything it leans the other way.

JPHighwater said...
Interesting thread. My degree is in Chemistry and although I completely agree with the initial poster I have recently run across interesting research. Read this article, http://www.labmanager.com/news/2018/04/drinking-baking-soda-could-be-an-inexpensive-safe-way-to-combat-autoimmune-disease?utm_campaign=NEWSLETTER_LM_Food-Science-Tools-and-Techniques_2018&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=62814052&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--tIBdM3EnucveQmQIy8k8rpaPlz4rOgq7oFI8CXW3YQFU9n3aT30jReIfw_QEwGnhRhCTHuk5qqFA8g_ZXBzB_6iCEjHB4hJr8Ebf0O4nZRZDLmK0&_hsmi=62814052#.WvRjQYgvyUk

If down-regulating the immune system is the result of baking soda therapy, then why would it get rid of cancer? Some cancer therapies up-regulate the immune system to "eat" the cancer. Other therapies poison it selectively (at least they try to do that).

My gut feeling is that this is not the panacea that some make it out to be. I have a personal connection to this. My brother is currently trying this as well as he also has prostate cancer.

JP

Well, there you go! I suppose he is also having some form of main stream treatment, either that or qualifies for AS. Either way, if he is trying it, will he do better or worse? Now that may not be easy to determine, as we will all vary- treated or not- in how we will do. But if he does remarkably better than expected, then that will "prove" nothing but will be -at least for some of us- be one more green light for this "treatment" that has not gone away, regardless of the correct chemistry theories as to why it can not possibly work. (after all, on the outside chance it does help, it is quite possible we have no clue as to why, and it actually has nothing to do with the pH/acid of blood or tumor.)

OTOH, if he does noticeably worse than expected, though once again proving nothing, that will be a rather large negative for many.

Also, are there any warnings of harm associated with taking some bicarb? (the molasses may be more worrisome, as it might raise blood sugar and insulin levels, which I am not a fan of doing, but maybe that is just me). But if there are no warnings against it, right here at this forum are a boatload of folks at varying levels of advancement and treatment who, unless warned not to by their doctors, could give it a try. And then we could poll members to see if things went better or worse than expected. Now I know there are authorities even on this forum who are going to condemn me for suggesting such a dangerous blasphemy, and how unscientific such an undertaking would be. OTOH, if 10 folks try it(hopefully not forbidden by there docs) and- kind of like CashlessClay and his diet- say 8 of those folks do noticeably better than expected, are you really going to ignore it? Well, I'm sure some of us would.

Dr. Who, may I ask: how does the chemistry work if there is little to no stomach acid at the time the bicarb is taken? And if repeated a short time later after acid has been neutralized?

This all makes me think of my days of resuscitating patients during my anesthesia career. Guess what was on every crash cart? Yep, good old Sodium Bicarb! In great big old syringes for straight IV injection! Very common to inject this to help overcome the blood acidosis level( measured by blood gas testing) that inevitably occurred during these crises. We would also measure the CO2 being breathed out by the patient through the endotracheal tube(not just during resuscitation, but also during normal general anesthesia), and adjust our ventilation settings according to too much CO2 vs too little. One day during my training, I pointed out to my superior how the CO2 had suddenly jumped upward, indicating maybe we needed to increase our ventilation. Then I was reminded by said superior about how we had just injected a big bolus of NaBicarb, which as pointed out in the OP, can lead to increased CO2! What does that have to do with curing cancer with bicarb? Nothing!

Does taking a dose of sody help fight cancer? Probably not, but I have no clue. Interesting studies you guys have posted that might generate a hypothesis among some of us.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 5/10/2018 12:36:43 PM (GMT-6)

I just joined this forum and I don't know if this thread is still active but it's letting me reply.

So I'm not a doctor or chemist or biologist like it seems a lot of people are, and I don't yet understand all the technical abbreviations in people's footers. I'm a 70 yo man (obviously) who was diagnosed 4 mo ago with PC. PSA was 6.4 and we did a biopsy; Gleason was 3+3=6 but with a fair amount of tumor.. Not sure what that means but my urologist said it's pretty much on the edge of needing to intervene and gave me the active surveillance option which I took.

So I changed my diet to totally vegan, no coffee, no alcohol, no dairy, fish, meat, etc; IE a plant based diet. The urologist said it's not worth taking another PSA reading for 6 months due to damage from the biopsy but I had to know, so at about 3 1/2 months after the biopsy the PSA reading was 6.9. I was disappointed of course but thought maybe he was right and maybe it's actually dropping.

In any event, like others on this thread I've run across many people on the web who claim they've cured their PC by shocking their body with baking soda. Too many to discount. As I said I'm not a cellular biologist but one natural-path individual said it's not about raising the blood pH but has to do with proton/electron availability that eventually drives more oxygen into the bloodstream and that kills the cancer cells.

Plese don't yell at me; I'm only the messenger, and my one college chem course was a long time ago and we didn't even get into cells of course.

In any event, I've embarked on the so-called baking soda protocol, which is basically taking enough BS to keep your urine pH at 8.0to 8.5 for about 5 to 7 days. After that, a week or two delay and then a PSA test. I'll post the results here if anybody's interested.

Post Edited (Vic Hardy) : 6/23/2019 10:26:02 PM (GMT-6)

Don't mean to play the victim, maybe I'm just being overly dramatic. But after only a short time on this thread I sense a few people - who seem knowledgeable - are basically saying that if the chemistry doesn't make sense or if modern medicine can't explain it then it must be quackery. Yet I can give you two URL's on youtube where two men cured their PC in a week, one as I recall had metastasized to the bones. One week; how is that possible? I'm sure there are more, maybe a lot more, but the fact is that it's worked on some people. You'd think that the medical community would be all over this yet so far I've only been able to find a couple studies on mice (one that clearly shrunk tumors) and another at U of Ariz cancer center that was supposed to have recruited people for a trial (is that the right word?) in 2015. That one finished but for some reason no results were published.

And yes, I'll place a bet on this as it costs nothing and there are no side effects and if it can buy me time before the Ornish/Greger diet kicks in and not have to decide between between surgery or radiation then really, why not?

Vic,
Welcome to the forum.
It's generally better to stick to the same lab for your PSA testing when you are looking for trends. For a single reading every now and then it probably won't make enough difference to worry about. 6.4 and 6.9 are clinically similar numbers and the 0.5 rise is only meaningful if it continues. But it would be better if you could stick to one lab.
I think I found your guy on YouTube who cured his metastatic prostate cancer with baking soda and the juice of organic lemons. *sigh* It wasn't hard to find. Members can google for it if they're curious. Instead, I will offer this link to Dave Van Ronk singing "One Meatball". It's a favorite of mine. Van Ronk puts everything he has into that performance. You can hear the color of his socks. What brought it to mind was that just the same way as "You gets no bread with one meatball" you also gets no science with one random guy on the Internet. Take it from me. As a random guy on the Internet myself, I know what I'm talking about.
I also found the results for your U of Az study. https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/safety-and-tolerability-of-longterm-sodium-bicarbonate-consumption-in-cancer-care-2329-6771.1000128.php?aid=40608 The use of the word "cancer" in the title is a bit misleading. That's where they are heading but this actual study used (15) healthy volunteers and all they were looking for was safety and tolerability of that much sodium bicarbonate. I suspect they are looking into the feasibility of a human trial similar to their mouse study -- Bicarbonate Increases Tumor pH and Inhibits Spontaneous Metastases that found that oral sodium bicarbonate delayed metastasis of breast and prostate cancer in mice and increased survival but did not slow the growth of established tumors.
So, based on the U of Az mouse study it might make sense for patients at risk of developing metastases (which you're not, most likely by the way with your Gleason 6 disease*) but there are lots of things that work great for mice that don't work for humans. If we were all mice we'd have cured cancer years ago.
But, like I said, welcome. Nobody is allowed to yell at you here.
* Gleason 6(3+3) never seems to metastasize but, unfortunately, a biopsy result of Gleason 6 sometimes has missed higher-Gleason tumors that can metastasize.

Baking soda? Sheesh.

Thanks everyone for answering. I do agree with staying with the same lab and will move in that direction.

Here are two URL's for people on youtube that claim the baking soda thing worked, FYI:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl8Y8I_TsjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPUeqCbubLo

Although I don't understand how the chemistry is working here, obviously something is going on or these guys are lying or their cancers coincidentally went away. Hard to know.

In any event, I'm pushing forward with the plant based diet and will have results from my great baking soda experiment in about a month. If my condition does not improve, I'll be asking you guys for advice on options for sure.

Also, if I can figure out most of the acronyms on everybody's footer, I'll add in my story to date. Seems like a good thing to see everybody's story...