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Hard to believe Americans are protesting for the right to catch, and spread, COVID-19

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Posted 4/22/2020 1:20 PM (GMT 0)
Regarding the opinion/belief that everyone should be wearing masks whenever they leave their home, as has been mandated in some places, I object to that kind of generalizing. I live in Montana, a BIG state, where about half the counties haven’t had a single case of the virus. I am an avid runner. How am I risking myself or anyone else when I go out for a 13 mile run, like I did last Sunday morning, and see almost no one but, surprisingly, the occasional police officer. One size doesn’t fit all. Also, I have a full beard and the CDC mentions that masks are ineffective with facial hair. What next, mandatory shaving?
Posted 4/22/2020 1:36 PM (GMT 0)

VinceInMT said...
Regarding the opinion/belief that everyone should be wearing masks whenever they leave their home, as has been mandated in some places, I object to that kind of generalizing. I live in Montana, a BIG state, where about half the counties haven’t had a single case of the virus. I am an avid runner. How am I risking myself or anyone else when I go out for a 13 mile run, like I did last Sunday morning, and see almost no one but, surprisingly, the occasional police officer. One size doesn’t fit all. Also, I have a full beard and the CDC mentions that masks are ineffective with facial hair. What next, mandatory shaving?

There can be some logic applied. The current order in our NC county is to wear a mask in public where social distancing isn't practical. Folks shed virus before any symptoms appear. Surely a mask will stop some droplets if you are shedding.

Djin
Posted 4/22/2020 1:58 PM (GMT 0)

VinceInMT said...
Regarding the opinion/belief that everyone should be wearing masks whenever they leave their home, as has been mandated in some places, I object to that kind of generalizing. I live in Montana, a BIG state, where about half the counties haven’t had a single case of the virus. I am an avid runner. How am I risking myself or anyone else when I go out for a 13 mile run, like I did last Sunday morning, and see almost no one but, surprisingly, the occasional police officer. One size doesn’t fit all. Also, I have a full beard and the CDC mentions that masks are ineffective with facial hair. What next, mandatory shaving?

Yeah, I also think logic should prevail. It certainly makes no sense for you to wear a mask on a lonely run. I also don't wear one when I walk the dog around our community. When we pass someone all parties socially distance so there is not an issue. On the other hand, when I go to the grocery store or big box store where it is not always possible to stay six feet away, I wear a mask and feel more comfortable when the other shoppers do also. As we reopen the economy it would be nice if common sense would prevail. Unfortunately some of those who seek "freedom" (not talking about you, Vince) will insist on imposing on my freedom to live without the virus...

I have a doctor friend who often says, "better six feet apart than six feet under".

Jim
Posted 4/22/2020 2:39 PM (GMT 0)
It's been said before, "you can't fix stupid".
Posted 4/22/2020 2:51 PM (GMT 0)
Regarding beards, mentioned in Vince's post, i read somewhere (or maybe heard on the news, don't recall) a few days ago, that a beard can catch some of the virus if one coughs, or is near someone who coughs, or otherwise releases virus into the air. They didnt say beards are inadvisable, but did say it would be best to keep beards "well trimmed", in which case its probably safe. So if you buy into the idea, i would probably avoid the ZZTop look

Full disclosure: i haven't shaved in 3 weeks, despite my wifes protestations LOL
Posted 4/22/2020 3:04 PM (GMT 0)

alephnull said...


We don't restrict speech like Canada, England, and some European countries do. As do the vast majority of the world's countries.

From Wikipedia, here are some of the restrictions to free speech.

"common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, ****ography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury."

If you find those troubling, you should know those are restrictions imposed by the first amendment of the US constitution.

Canada does share many of the same restrictions. The Canadian charter does also includes restrictions on" hate speech",where the US constitution does not.
Posted 4/22/2020 3:59 PM (GMT 0)

Pratoman said...
Regarding beards, mentioned in Vince's post, i read somewhere (or maybe heard on the news, don't recall) a few days ago, that a beard can catch some of the virus if one coughs, or is near someone who coughs, or otherwise releases virus into the air. They didnt say beards are inadvisable, but did say it would be best to keep beards "well trimmed", in which case its probably safe. So if you buy into the idea, i would probably avoid the ZZTop look

Full disclosure: i haven't shaved in 3 weeks, despite my wifes protestations LOL

I heard that about beards too. I know for a fact that in China many doctors and nurses shave their beards, and their heads (bald).
Posted 4/22/2020 5:13 PM (GMT 0)
It IS reality that to wear any kind of breathing equipment, a clean shave is mandatory. That really does apply to everything from the paper mask from the hardware store that you're supposed to use when you are sanding on up. By the way, a full face mask that seals against your forehead won't work if you wear glasses.

Now, for what we're doing with the cloth masks to keep our sneezes and coughs to ourselves? Not so much. Remember, that the mask is not to protect YOU, it's to protect everyone else FROM YOU. (an N95, or a respirator protects YOU, but no one else (they have an exhalation valve that releases what you exhale to the atmosphere).
Posted 4/22/2020 6:11 PM (GMT 0)

DjinTonic said...

F8 said...
Georgia CV cases are not on the downswing and the state is way behind on testing. yet on Friday you'll be able to ... get a handjob.


Yeah, sure, but it won't feel the same with a glove.

Hah!
Posted 4/22/2020 8:17 PM (GMT 0)
"The survey from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research finds that...
12% believe it goes too far.
26% believe it it doesn't go far enough.
61% believe it's just about right.
It's nice to see that just about 9 out of 10 Americans are on board with the measures for fighting this Pandemic.
Posted 4/22/2020 8:40 PM (GMT 0)
Which again brings up the thought that even with "reopening", how many consumers will actually participate?
Posted 4/22/2020 9:36 PM (GMT 0)

spottydog10 said...
alephnull
I have been to the US many times and always enjoyed my time there and in general like it's peoples but that is a foolish and arrogant statement for you to make regarding liberty.
Look at what the US has done to it's own and other countries citizens in the name of freedom over the last 50 years.

I would suggest you look at what these other countries did to their own citizens and their neighbors over the last 100 years.
Posted 4/23/2020 2:24 AM (GMT 0)

halbert said...
It IS reality that to wear any kind of breathing equipment, a clean shave is mandatory.


I've had a full beard since 1976. My immediate family has never seen me without it. No, I won't be shaving. I don't even own a razor.
Posted 4/23/2020 4:27 AM (GMT 0)
Honestly guys, I think our perspective is skewed by the fact that Covid-19 seems to hit the 55+ age group the worst. Thats our demographic. We are on the back 9 as it were, and Covid-19 is something we have to consider.

However, to 18-54 year olds....Covid19 is background risk not a clear and present danger.

12 million people are out of work, many are 18-54 year olds, now struggling to support their families. From their perspective, this is an over-reaction and they are correct.

To those of you who seemingly like to bash America, almost gleefully pointing out that America has the highest number of Covid-19 cases( “we’re number one”, “Im ashamed of our response” .etc) I present without fanfare.... reality.

On a per capita basis (cases per million population) , we are doing pretty well.

https://www.statista.com/chart/21176/covid-19-infection-density-in-countries-most-total-cases/

The United States, the country with by far the most cases, still has a relatively low figure in comparison, 2,322

So we are not #1 in the statistic that matters. Not by a longshot,

Oh and look over here. On a per Capita basis we are *second* for testing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-testing-per-capita-us-italy-south-korea-2020-4

Be well all. This too shall pass.
Posted 4/23/2020 9:33 AM (GMT 0)
Vince: I'm not saying you should shave. I'm reflecting reality: If you ever needed to wear either a negative pressure or positive pressure respirator, a clean shave is mandatory or it won't work. And, even a paper mask with that little metal strip you pinch around your nose will only work if you're clean shaven.

A fabric mask with loops behind your ears is there to protect others from your sneeze or cough. It's not there to protect you from theirs.
Posted 4/23/2020 9:45 AM (GMT 0)
Why would anyone take the advice of someone who isn't a doctor, scientist, or other medical expert, on a matter of life and death? Is that what you did when you were diagnosed with cancer? Listened to some guy on the web telling you "only old men die from it, chill"?

And, why in God's name, would anyone take the advice of crazy people who stand with signs saying "open the economy, I want to get my hair done"? If you can believe it, I saw one loser with a sign that said "sacrifice the weak". I saw men, that looked like terrorists, standing in front of nurses, who save lives every single day, shouting at them, harassing them, telling them this was a fake crisis, and we need to open up now. What the hell kind of man does that? They're right? No, they're wrong. Because they're idiots, and dangerous idiots at that, they want to get the virus, and then spread it to everyone else, so they can get their nails done, go to the gym, and get drunk in crowded bars that are actually petri dishes for the virus. Are these the same sort of Americans who fought in World War II, or went through the Great Depression? Hardly. I don't know what they are.

The per capita stats on infection are meaningless, as we've not tested enough people to know how many are infected. I'm surprised you'd even post it. Did you even read it? This is a quote from it: "Of course, the number of actual cases in a country is going to be higher than official figures show, with testing rates also varying dramatically. As with all figures relating to confirmed cases, they should be treated with caution."

Testing? We all know the debacle over testing. Even today people can't get tests.

Without Widespread Testing, Senior Living Communities Are Covid-19 ‘Tinderboxes’
https://seniorhousingnews.com/2020/04/22/without-widespread-testing-senior-living-communities-are-covid-19-tinderboxes/

"'Every one of these facilities is like a tinderbox, and every positive staff member or resident is a lighted match," National Church Residences Chief Medical Officer Dr. John Weigand told SHN. "To presumptively say the people who have symptoms are positive, and those who don’t have symptoms are negative, is foolhardy.'"

State still lacking COVID-19 test supplies
https://www.salisburypost.com/2020/04/18/state-still-lacking-covid-19-test-supplies/

I can continue to post stories of the lack of needed testing, but the point is made. We lost well over a month, due to the lack of testing, and because we didn't have the capability to test, people died, and continue to die. If that isn't shameful I don't know what is. Is this America, or some Third World country? My father, God rest his soul, fought in World War II. I am glad he isn't around to see what happened to the U.S.

We were not ready to fight this war. Our leaders failed us. No amount of "hoo rah rah go team" cheerleading can ever change that fact.

The only stat that counts is this one: 47,681 U.S. deaths and counting... #1 with a bullet.
Posted 4/23/2020 10:58 AM (GMT 0)
Buddy, I would suggest that there are only two related stats that are of value--and both are local/regional, not national.

One is the ratio of available hospital beds to the patient load. If there are more beds available (and staff, and equipment) than patients who need them, that is a positive sign.

Second is the death rate per 100,000 population. This ultimately will (or should) drive the reopening process. Again, this is a local or regional thing. It's probably not the best play to let the NYC statistics drive what happens in Montana. No, the virus does not respect political boundaries--and I really like the perspective of regional groupings working together to reopen. It makes no sense, as someone who lives in suburban Philadelphia and works in New Jersey, to not take what is happening in NYC into account when thinking about what to do and when to do it here.
Posted 4/23/2020 11:46 AM (GMT 0)
Life is change.

When I was younger I rode a 1946 flathead 80 HD chopper souped to the nines, wore a big full beard and my hair down to my mid-back. I was painting bikes though, and the mask blowby was quite visible after I did a paint job. So I shaved the beard for my own safety.

I got terminal split ends from riding the HD and my hair looked like crap so I got a short hair cut. When we got here to the future in 2000 I shaved my head as well as my face. Now, I use protective gear all of the time for spray painting, rock grinding and anything I do that generates airborne dust or fumes.

The wife now prefers my shaven head and I enjoy being able to get very clean with little effort. smile
Posted 4/23/2020 12:49 PM (GMT 0)
I bought some electric clippers and now I have a pandemic haircut. 1/4 inch long like I had when I was a young child. Very refreshing and super-easy to care for. I'm going to keep it.
Posted 4/23/2020 2:14 PM (GMT 0)
I was going to try and step out of this, but I'll respond to Grizzley

P or nogr aphy and obscenity are only restricted from minors, well maybe not obscenity.

As for Hate speech, that is too vague of language. It's my understanding that in Canada and England you cannot voice a negative opinion about Muslims and/or homosexuals. Whether these are bad or not is not the question, it is/can be political speech. We in the USA allow for people to have their opinions, it is society that will judge them not a court.
In the USA, racists are marginalized as they should be. But, if you want to be a racist, homophobe, islamaphobe you can be, and you can express your vile opinions. Society will sort you out and you will be marginalized and made an example of.

The other items you mention protect someone or all of us from harm be it physical or financial.
Freedom is great thing, oppression of belief is not.
Posted 4/23/2020 2:34 PM (GMT 0)

Buddy Blank said...
Why would anyone take the advice of someone who isn't a doctor, scientist, or other medical expert, on a matter of life and death? Is that what you did when you were diagnosed with cancer? Listened to some guy on the web telling you "only old men die from it, chill"?


Nope. I would expect rational people to look at data and see for themselves and not just repeat hyperbole after hyperbole.I would expect policymakers to take facts into consideration when devising policy.

I would encourage everyone to check out table 2 from the cdc web site. Of all the people who died from Covid-19, 2.8% are are aged 44 or less. A whopping 97.2% are aged 45 and over. That's bad news for us but it is, in fact, the way it is.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

Back before there was a polio vaccine, polio targeted children. That wasn't fair either, but it was true.

Buddy Blank said...
Because they're idiots, and dangerous idiots at that, they want to get the virus, and then spread it to everyone else, so they can get their nails done, go to the gym, and get drunk in crowded bars that are actually petri dishes for the virus. Are these the same sort of Americans who fought in World War II, or went through the Great Depression? Hardly. I don't know what they are

There are, without a doubt, idiots in just about any group of people you can imagine. The trick to remaining sane is trying to walk in someones footsteps.

So here is a footstep I would ask you to consider.

Look at Table 2 again. It also provides statistics about population. Aged 1 to 44....~191 million people here in the USA. if you divide the number of people aged 1-44 who died from Covid-19 by 191 million the chances of you dying of Covid is 0.00032%.

I submit that they are looking at their families, their children's future, and that risk, and they are asking themselves "What the....", then are holding signs that say something just as absurd in the opposite direction.

Unfortunately the reality for us is many many people are walking around with the virus and are oblivious they have it but have no outward symptoms. We cannot continually test 327 million people. Until there is a vaccine or an effective treatment that can reduce the severity of the virus, those of us over age 50 have increased risk. Over age 70 its dangerous.

We have to protect ourselves as best we can until the medical researchers can do their thing. We are not stupid or helpless.

I understand the fear, but we cannot expect the world to stop because of it.
Posted 4/23/2020 3:04 PM (GMT 0)
We're not talking about numbers, we're talking about human lives. We're not going to sacrifice people over 45 so selfish idiots can get a haircut.
Posted 4/23/2020 3:17 PM (GMT 0)

alephnull said...
I was going to try and step out of this, but I'll respond to Grizzley

P or nogr aphy and obscenity are only restricted from minors, well maybe not obscenity.

As for Hate speech, that is too vague of language. It's my understanding that in Canada and England you cannot voice a negative opinion about Muslims and/or homosexuals. Whether these are bad or not is not the question, it is/can be political speech. We in the USA allow for people to have their opinions, it is society that will judge them not a court.
In the USA, racists are marginalized as they should be. But, if you want to be a racist, homophobe, islamaphobe you can be, and you can express your vile opinions. Society will sort you out and you will be marginalized and made an example of.

The other items you mention protect someone or all of us from harm be it physical or financial.
Freedom is great thing, oppression of belief is not.


Thanks for your reply. Your post certainly clarifies your views. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes a free state.
I'll leave this thread and this forum with the words expressed daily by the medical health officer who is leading the Covid-19 response in BC.

Be kind, be calm, and be safe.
Posted 4/23/2020 3:47 PM (GMT 0)

Buddy Blank said...
We're not talking about numbers, we're talking about human lives. We're not going to sacrifice people over 45 so selfish idiots can get a haircut.

Well if we aren't talking about numbers and facts, there isn't much else to say. I hope you can find some peace Buddy Blank. Us PCa newbies need you!
Posted 4/23/2020 4:02 PM (GMT 0)
We're talking human lives, something you attempted to reduce to a numbers game.
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