Cedar Chopper's Page & Updates ~ Radical Prostatectomy ~ February '07

Lee & Buddy,

What a nice present!  My own thread.  :)

I'm a little rushed this morning. 

I've been working for this company 30 years.
They sent me to college where I earned
a bachelors and a couple of masters.

A song for the Bluebirds of Titan:

From Dichos de Amor

The conditions of a solitary bird are five:

        1)  That he flies to the highest point,
        2)  That he does not suffer for company, not even his own kind,
        3)  That he aims his beak to the skies,
        4)  That he does not have a definite color,
        5)  ...and, that he sings, very softly.

The Cedars of Lebanon were
chopped down by Hiram's workers
for King Solomon
to build the first Temple
to house the Presence of God....

I see all of you there! 
Godspeed your healing.

Cedar Chopper ~ C^C

(I'll be back online early tomorrow.  I too have no cell, no cable, and only a computer at work....)

Lee & Buddy,

Your post from Dr. Walsh's book was very helpful to me.
Don't delete it!

I'm careful about lifting. I stick with 20 pounds right now. I'm 5 weeks and 3 days out from surgery.
I'm beginning to feel SOME control of incontinence, even when standing and walking!
It's like a plumbing job - only the "Kegel wrench" seems to require layered applications through time.

I still leak after about 15 minutes of walking - but returning to my life keeps my spirits up - and my focus on the Kegels seems to require this postive attitude adjustment:
My response to repeatedly exhausting these muscles - and the patience required as I heal - is so out-of-character for me and emotional.
A "crying infant in diapers" in the house is VERY different for
a control/clean freak with a serious bent of work-a-holism and "postive-thinking-itis."

Keep singing! I'll try to help this Forum when I can.
There is a bird in Central Texas called the Golden Cheeked Warbler.
It only builds its nest in Oak trees.
It only builds its nest out of Texas Cedar (actaully a Juniper) bark.
It has an amazing song.

Thanks.
Cedar Chopper

Mkat,

Your online name reminds me of the SAT, GRE, LSAT, and GMAT....... :)
Choosing a Med School boggles my mind right now.

My online name actually originated from my father (aka the "Original Cedar Chopper").
In the 1930's, during the Depression, he and his family 
      (His father was born in a mud dugout on the Middle Concho River in the 1800s)
lived underneath what is now Lake Travis in the Texas Hill Country.
Dad herded goats and chopped cedar posts for a living.
When he needed cash, he would "bake" the cedar posts into charcoal and sell it.

  I'm still trying to discipline my mind
    to multi-task my activities
       while coordinating the Kegel muscles
         as I develop these muscles
            to be on task
              as I go about my purpose -

I get a little better and a little less frustrated every day.

Thanks to all of you for working together here.

Cedar Chopper

Hi ~ Cedar Chopper   & Loved Ones,   Caring Enough to Share…..            A    “Special”   Warm Welcome   to   You!         This is truly a great forum!!! ~ You have joined! You are now part our forum family ~ a group of wonderful individuals who are so willing to share their journey .   Thank you for joining all of us in the continued road to HealingWell…..   KNOWLEDGE IS POWER... and POWER conquers fear     You are a wonderful addition to our forum family!!!!   Thank you for sharing. Our thoughts and prayers are with you. In Friendship ~ Lee & Buddy   “God Bless You”  It's a little prayer   ~   "God Bless You"   ...but it means so much each day, It means may angels guard you and guide you on your  way

Friends,

I'm in Day One of Week Nine - using 3 to 8 pads per day -depending on activity level.

I project and accept health and well-being like the light on a Jedi Knight's saber....

My physical and mental condition has improved remarkably.

I'm in good spirits most of the time and I get stronger every day.
I'm still basically incontinent whenver I am walking around for more than 15 minutes.
I walk around six days a week for 8 to 10 hours a day:  I bend, lift and reach as I manage a crew to merchandise Fresh Produce.
I'm not complaining.  It is what I do.  I love it!

I'm getting better at controlling leaks so slowly, it confounds this "Mr. Over-Achiever."
Only my control reclining and sitting keeps my hopes up.
However, I will not accept any statistic, opinion, idea, thought, whisper, etc that tells me I will be in pads forever.... 
(I bat these ideas down all the time.  Especially when I'm leaking in mid-conversation on the sales floor.)

I project and accept health and well being like the light on a Jedi Knight's saber....

fyi, a Cedar Chopper's sword is a double-edged ax....  :->

***************************************************************
The following excerpt is a comment from week eight - when using 4 to 8 pads per day
   - depending on time spent working/lifting (often 10 to 14 hours - six-days per week).
I'm inserting my following comment to my thread so I can give (myself) a pep talk whenever (my) "pelvic floor muscles" are exhausted:

Gene,
Improving the  "recruiting pattern" for the Kegel muscles - that is what my "bio-feedback pelvic floor muscle therapist" has me working on.  The pelvic floor muscles include the muscles around the anus (as you noted), those that can consciously stop the urine flow (see Lifeguyd's description), and the (VERY) lower abdominal area of the pubis that is just above the penis.
My therapist says that while stopping urine flow in mid stream can isolate the muscles (see Lifeguyd's idea about feeling below the scrotum), my therapist says that you should NOT use "stopping urine flow in mid-stream" as an exercise as you are confusing signals to the smooth muscles controlling the bladder and its valve that you have no real conscious control over.

I am one of the patients that uses the "walking around nude with a cup" method.
However, now I just use old t-shirts as the leaks are now small and the cup is awkward and spills.
The benefits of "walking around nude " include immediate feedback of leaking, zero tolerance for leaking (LISTEN TO LEE & BUDDY BLUEBIRD!  NO CLAMPS.  NO BAGS.), and staying dry between 10 to 14 hour shifts at work with pads. 
My latest variation on this naked exercise: When I awaken in the morning (from sleeping nude over a bed incontinence pad) with a full bladder, before I relieve myself, I stand over the toilette and cough REALLY hard while trying to keep from leaking.....  I still have a lot of work to do for that kind of control!
My therapist calls flexing all the pelvic floor muscles for this kind of control "bracing."  (For example, while lifting 80 pounds or sometimes just sitting up from a reclining postion with a full bladder....)

AS FOR THE "ELEVATOR KEGELS":
The idea is to use the same pattern of sets of ten you currently use.
However, you flex at half strength for 3 to 5 seconds,
  then full strength for 3 to 5 seconds,
    then half strength again for 3 to 5 seconds,
        (this "elevator going down" part is the most difficult and most beneficial)
      then rest for ten seconds.
IF YOU CAN, DO SETS FOCUSING ON ALL THREE AREAS OF THE PELVIC FLOOR MUSCLES (ANUS, "URETHRA SEAM,' AND LOWER PUBIS) - AND THEN TRY SETS CONSTRICTING ALL THREE SIMULTANEOUSLY.
My 30 minute commute allows me real focus on these exercises.  I am getting stronger muscles and a little bit better "walking around & lifting" control each day.

The idea of doing these on the stairmaster (Thanks Mama Bluebird!) is sound.
I "Kegel" while uing a Total Gym in rowing machine mode -and just on the floor doing  "backstrap focus stomach crunches."
The main idea is that as you use variable strength in various movements and positions-
you refine and develop the "recruiting patterns" and coordination of the muscles you will need both unconsciously and consciously.  
(My personal goal here: Zen Shaolin Urology Kegelmeister....  )

Try to remember:
Who(se) you are,
Where you are going, and that
God's Presence is very familiar with (toilette training!) His children.  :)
*****************************************************************

...building a Temple for the Presence of God.... out of Texas Cedar!

Cedar Chopper

---

~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*

VIEW IMAGE VIEW IMAGE I'm at work and someone sent me this.  Eat well and keep positive!  Cedar Chopper
VIEW IMAGE	VIEW IMAGE	VIEW IMAGE While all foods provide calories and some nutrition, scientists in recent years have identified some "superfoods" that can do much more. These foods not only nourish you, but work with your body to improve your health and prevent common diseases, including cancer. These "superfoods" harness the power of phytochemicals in fruits, vegetables, beans and whole grains. Fruits and Vegetables Tomatoes and tomato products, watermelon and pink grapefruit all get their color from a chemical called lycopene. Eating five servings a week of tomatoes or tomato products is associated with a lower risk of prostate cancer. You don't even have to eat much – just 6 oz. of tomato juice or tomato-based vegetable juice will increase lycopene levels in the blood by 50%. The lycopene concentrates in the prostate gland, where it can act to prevent cancer-cell growth. Broccoli contains a sharp-tasting chemical called isothiocyanates, which interacts with your body to increase anti-cancer defenses. It stimulates the production of special proteins, which in your liver can process and eliminate cancer-causing chemicals. While about 10% of the population has an inherited aversion to broccoli, the good news is that as you get older and the risk of cancer increases, your taste for broccoli usually improves. To get all the phytochemicals you need from fruits and vegetables, choose one fruit or vegetable from each of seven color groups (Red, Green, Yellow/Green, Orange, Orange/Yellow, Red/Purple and White/Green) each day: Red: Tomatoes, tomato juice, tomato soup, watermelon, pink grapefruit Green: Broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbage Yellow/Green: Spinach, avocado, kale, collard greens Orange: Carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin Yellow/Orange: Oranges, pineapple, banana, cantaloupe White/Green: Garlic, onions, chives Red/Purple: Blueberries, strawberries, raspberries, red wine Each color provides unique substances; eating one from each group every day makes the most of their protective, nutritional properties. Another benefit: Fruits and vegetables fill you up on fewer calories. A cup of red cabbage, for example, has only about 40 calories; a cup of white rice or mashed potatoes has 250.

Cancer-Fighting Superfoods
Eating colorful fruits and veggies can help reduce cancer risks.
by Dr. David Heber, M.D., Ph.D., Senior Scientific Advisor

Friends,  RUNNING LOG LAST UPDATED 13FEB09 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Posted 16AUG07 Six Month PSA <. 00 3   :)  (Sample taken 09AUG07) Almost back to my old strength at work. Haven't lost weight - but haven't gained any. Still have E.D.  Taking 50 mg of Viagra daily . Using pump for tissue maintenance whenever I can make myself - maybe once or twice a week. (Boring!).  To Jefnef,  I posted this 16AUG07  as A Kegel Encouragement: Except for your incontinence, I'm glad to hear you are otherwise feeling well and not letting this annoyance cloud your mood. I would offer that on the one hand, you are way ahead of the curve on conquering E.D. - while on the other, you are just a little behind most in beating incontinence.  Three months is just about two weeks behind where MANY suddenly see rapid improvement! My personal experience suggests you might benefit from a bio-feedback therapist. One of the things I was doing at weeks 10 through 14 (when I became pad-free) was sitting/walking around the house nude with an old t-shirt to collect drips - exerting as much kegel control when moving around - & finessing as much urine retention  - as possible. It is the control (at first conscious - later somewhat automatic) it is the control that you learn to exert when walking around (especially on stairs) that demostrates that the goal of kegel exercises is not a vice-grip - but rather a muscle tone of a group of muscles that share the load .  (The last third cycle of the "elevator kegel exercise" best develops this "tone.")   The developed kegel (pelvic floor) muscles are "couching" that valve that works for you while you sit still.  Your movements and gravity pull on that valve. The pelvic floor muscle bundle must work like your bicep does when you hold a weight  in an extended arm while walking. One other observation and encouragement:  Any type of pad or physical urine control will delay your improvement. Your mind and sub-conscious will slowly- if-ever  make this extraordinary effort (Women are amazing!) if it knows the pad or bucket or whatever will catch the drips. Personally, I found drinking any alcohol was a real challenge for this learning process .  Some become continent while drinking.  A very few never become continent whether they drink or not.  Others find they are challenged by caffeine or spice.  Perhaps it is too soon to throw in the towel - just walk around nude with an old one instead. Respectfully, C C edar ICTHUS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv I'm copying these three posts here as they have information I don't want to misplace: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv   Gordy/Les, I once read a book, How to Get Control of Your Time and Your Life (by Laikin) and the main exercise was to:   Take 30 minutes and write down everything you want to do if     you knew that you would die in 50 years.   Then make the list again if you knew you would die in 25 years.   Then 10 years; then 5 years; then one year;     then one month; then one week; then one day; then one hour;      then 5 minutes...... The idea was that when you finished the exercise, you did the entire process over again and noticed how it changed what is important to you. Fighting cancer is such a wake-up call to our mortality.  (Paraphrasing Jet-Guy Bill, we are successful if we fight this crap until we die of something else...) My college freshman room-mate was into martial arts and once he took a class where his instructor suggested to him to approach life as "the art of dying."  (I think it was some kung-fu / street fighting hybrid discipline). The "street fight" such as the one you are fighting makes both Laikin's priority exercise and the kung-fu master's "art of dying" all the more poignant. Regardless, you have found unconditional friendship here, a nice medium for any kind of art and always near the top of my priority list.  ;-> Sincerely, Cedar <!-- Edit --> Post Edited (Cedar Chopper) : 9/7/2007 4:41:37 AM (GMT-6) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv     From the Divine Ms. Blue on 31AUG07: Hi ~ Here are a few direct links... (Direct Link ~ just click on the title below and a new window will open!   Reminder … click on the REFRESH icon once you get there)   Started by: Gene6163   I Know Why I'm Still Incontinent @ 4 months... bladder neck stricture Should One "Hold" At All Times for Improved Continence? If lifted, I shouldn't have, it hurts, now Am I in trouble? Now I am in Panic Mode about My Incontinence... Help. Method discovered (?) while attempting to regain Continence "Gushing" and Collagen Implant open Surgery Three Weeks Ago...   Started by Puget Dilation procedure - effect on continence   Puget's Passage   Started by Jefner Reason for my continued incontinence: "Stricture"     Started by Berb Incontinence - Artificial Sphincters and Slings     This will help future readers also.   Post edited to add new links <!-- Edit --> Post Edited (bluebird) : 8/31/2007 7:36:32 PM (GMT-6) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv POSTED BY CEDAR ON 01SEP07: Berb, KW, Jeffnef, Gene, and others here with extended incontinence,   I admire your efforts and ability to help others on this topic. Jeffnef,   Concerning going back to work fully incontinent: I am a Produce manger in a large grocery store and "manage" 10 to 20 pallets of 10 to 60 pound boxes every day.  I went back to work at Week 4 fully incontinent as I worked on my feet 12+ hours a day around customers and co-workers that never knew anything except that I had "some kind of hernia surgery that I don't want to talk about " and stooped and lifted (light things at first) and remained fully incontinent through week 10 and more. My main strategy was to hydrate (1/2 gallon+ liquid) after work before bedtime and then limit fluids throughout the day to minimize pad change.  Then, the first 4+ hours at work, I would change out my pad every two hours and then about every four hours as I ran lower on fluids. My "pad" was actually two pads:  The men's brief liner that holds 8 ounces and then at 90 degrees, under the penis, I would wear a womens incontinence 12 ounce liner that was very easy to switch out.  If I remembered to switch the female liner out after two hours, I could leave the men's liner all day as it would not get wet. If I got thirsty and drank a Sprite, I would soon change out the women's liner again.... To be honest, I would forget to change out the women's liner soon enough at least once a day as I dealt with the demands of business and people.  I carried a couple of both kinds of pads in my pockets. My main advice is to use a barrier cream daily (e.g., petroleum jelly) and a fungicide ointment (I found generic Tinactin effective & cheap.) weekly.  Also, every night I would dust the entire area with baby powder (or fungicide Tinactin powder) and sleep nude on a disposable incontinence sheet/pad. A comment about the powder and sleeping (or watching TV) nude:  The sensation of dryness was unbelievably comforting to me when I was totally incontinent - and for six+ weeks had no reason to believe it would not last forever. While most of us only have an inkling of your battle, still, let us encourage you to be strong and like Berb, KW, and Gene - don't let it keep you from living the life you choose. Please express the victories you have by smiling at your friends - especially if they have no clue that a lot of us are still "in diapers..." for the long-haul. Sincerely, C C edar ICTHUS ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Cedar Chopper Wrote concerning ED and pumps on 15NOV07: CaPCA, My experience with and reading about the pump is that using it is most important to keep the tissues viable while your body heals from the traumas of the surgery. As the nerves regenerate, they will appreciate it if the penis muscle hasn't atrophied and actually creating an erection is not another issue. Length will increase gradually as you use the pump - especially if you use it several times a week. I also recommend using Viagra/Sedenafil Citrate (or another PED5) daily as it tends to increase general circulation in the area.  (For 65 cent doses of Seldenafil, see alldaychemistdotcom.) As for "too much vacuum," I would not cause myself more than discomfort - that is not too much pain.  The tissues need the blood but you can "blister" the tissues if you rush things.  My physician said it is best to just have frequency of "off and on" use of the pump each time you use it - letting the erection go up and down ten or 20 times for 10 seconds or so each session. I personally find the pump boring but make myself do the exercise once a week and I do see some improvement every week.  I do have "soft-on" erections (without the pump) with frequent orgasms that are improving in erectile quality (both length and rigidity) each week.  These orgasms are much more pleasant without the pump but they do require a lot more work than before surgery. What I have read suggests that if the radical prostatectomy patient regains erectile function and continence, even thought the erections themselves are not usually quite as firm as before,     - sex lasts longer, is more pleasurable for both partners,         birth control is not an issue, and there is a lot less mess.  You are so soon after surgery  I would say take it easy . Still, anything you do to stimulate this area without hurting yourself is probably a good idea. If you want to become sexually active sooner rather than later, perhaps, in a while , you might perhaps look into injections as those who use them generally get their normal function back sooner than those who do not.  (For excellent information on injections, look for Tamu's threads.) Good luck! C C edar ICTHUS! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Cedar Chopper Wrote concerning Prayer 28JAN2008: Gordy said... Dave and Lee- My heartfelt thanks to you two, too.... ...Again, thanks to you two and to to all the others above and to those who haven't written, but who have me in their thoughts and prayers. -Les Gordy/Les & Carol, Your position shift reminds me of two texts I am reading these days. The first, on the quantum computer, suggests using mathematic algorythms and quantum laws of atomic physics to harness the ability to solve problems for one optimal solution that have more possible solutions than there are atoms in the universe . ( Temporally impossible using current binary systems - no matter how many parallel processors are employed.) The biggest challenge is that to observe the solution held in super-position quantum states immediately causes the answer to collapse into random possibilities. In quantum mechanics, managing the necessity of banking on the unknowable can be done only by acknowledging the limitations of direct observation and looking indirectly for the answer. The second text is a short summary of "The Cloud of Unknowing."   This is best described as a spiritual text of exercises in humility.  That is to say, thought exercises that ramp up our potential by acknowledging the limitations of our ability to know everything. I find prayer reaches beyond such limitations as the number of atoms in the universe or how much space and time one might exchange these atoms for in a reality ruled by laws of Newton or Einstein. We who pray for you simply call upon and employ an inkling of W hich we cannot fully imagine - but trust. We observe the mechanics of prayer only in humility and indirectly. We do know where we can look without collapsing the system into chaos. The final solution always manifests itself as L ove. C C edar ICTHUS! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Friends,  POSTED 02FEB2008 Post-procedure statistics can be mis-leading.  The patients choose various procedures based on their personal situations.  These groups seem to have certain distinct characterisitcs.  For example, I'm not certain if this is still status quo but, initially only patients with very robust prognoses were considered for candidacy for Proton Therapy. -- probably to keep comorbidities from skewing the data being collected from the comparatively small population of patients. Otherwise healthy men,with low gleason scores,  are most typically advised to choose radical prostatectomy.  Proton Beam - and perhaps some day HIFU - and then perhaps that " easy, cheap, no-side-effect cure for all cancer ,"  - these will surely follow in due time for this younger, healthy, low-gleason group. Improvements in surgery & anesthesia and early detection (& the resulting ever-increasing chance of catching the cancer before capsular penetration) are some of the reasons our group seems skewed to surgery options.  (The younger patient is more likely to use electronic media, too.) The various radiation treatments are still so very important . As Julie has so eloquently commented, the smaller group representation here on this forum weights the importance of the "minority report" (e.g., radiation and/or HT)-related individual posts over the " radical majority." As we each personalize and customize our treatment choice, it becomes ever-more apparent how Ms. Bluebird's work pioneering the index for this forum is such a blessing for everyone (that only those of us that did not have its benefit early-on can entirely appreciate).  (Take a bow, Ms. Lee!) C C edar ICTHUS! ++++++POSTED BY CEDAR ON 02MAY08+++++ Ms. Blue, Ms. Susan, Ms. Creed, Mr. Tony, (You too, Ms. Swim!), Mr. Walt, Mr. Bill,  - and Friends, I still have no cell phone, no cable, no computer at home.... My boss asked me to curtail "chat rooms" on the work computer.... It's not my use of time at issue (I'm a certified salaried work-a-holic...)    - but rather the leadership issue - around those challenged in productivity. Still, the boss encourages my computer work with my class.  The business I work for "adopts" over half the public schools in Texas every year -   - with each school getting thousands of dollars and (many!) other perks. While these schools are all pretty much secular, my boss has adopted my Sunday School class as well - for the last 19 years! This is by way of saying, I'd love to keep in touch with any of you interested by email. Tony gave me a heads-up that "The Devine Ms. Blue" was sending out this shout to me. If you would like to stay in touch, please let Ms. Blue or Mr. Tony know that you would like my email address. To all of you new warriors here, I encourage you to search the archives Ms. Blue has brought to life on this site.  Many friends here move on to other challenges and opportunites in their lives. However, they left some gems in these archives about so many things: the treatment decision process (StrictlyInc!) , diet (Selmer!), E.D ., Proton Beam , etc. The treatment Decision tree process is changing so fast!  I find even the advice I'm giving my relatives newly diagnosed outdated.  With new opportunites at work taking so much of my time and focus, I haven't been able to keep up with the latest PC research.  For example, I noticed this symbiosis developing:  That most new Proton Beam facilities are being 60% funded by PC patients that require very little machine time.  PC patients are getting leading edge technology and allowing those that need this technology most more access. This could weight one's decision toward Proton Beam treatment. Ms. Creed, why did I disconnect my doorbell? Why, to receive the No-Bell prize, of course! It has been almost 15 months since my surgery.  All tests and physicians suggest I am cancer free.  To those of you just beginning this fight or still facing this threat, I offer you encouragement and my prayer : A CHEAP, EASY, NO-SIDE-EFFECT CURE FOR ALL CANCER, NOW! I remember finding this site (my physician's idea) when I was weak, bored, scared, and tied to my catheter.  The friends I found here lifted my spirits in so many ways. Thanks to you all. May YHWH's Love be with you, always  - in the Son! ++++++POSTED BY CEDAR ON 13FEB09+++++ C C edar ICTHUS! Good Morning, Just checking in to say hello and wish all of you at the Healingwell well. It was two years ago next week that I had my radical prostatectomy. It takes quite some time to get past this surgery. Now, after 24 months, my life is so much the same as before - and yet so very different. For example, while my "sex life" has become more a psychological and caressing endeavor,     my "LOVE" life takes a quantum leap with my every heartbeat. Fight the good fight and run the good race. Best wishes to you all.         C C EDAR         ICTHUS!    /\/\    /\/\  C*                 *D WOOF!   WOOF! 2 Years of PSA between 4 and 5.5  + Biopsy 23DEC06  Only 5 percent cancer in one of 8 samples.  +   Gleeson 3+3=6 open R P 16FEB07 at age 54. 1+" tumor - touching inside edge of gland.  + Confined .  :) Pad Free @ 14 weeks.  PSA: 6 mths <. 00 3   :)     9mths <. 00 8 :)   1 Yr <. 00 8 :)   18mths <.008 :)      5 Year Colonoscopy 19FEB08:  Clear! Texas Hill Country FRESH Produce Department Manager  - Have you had your 5 colors today ? My Threads? Cedar Chopper's Page & Updates ~ Radical Prostatectomy ~ Feb '07 "Zen and the Art of Orchestral Erectile Function" "Zen and the Art of Symphonic Continence"