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Posted 1/25/2009 1:17 AM (GMT 0)
If anyone is interested, there is an article on fecal transplantation here:

http://pokedandprodded.health.com/2008/07/10/fecal-transplants/
Posted 1/25/2009 6:43 AM (GMT 0)
The vitamin E enema procedure diet provides the proper environment for the growth of good bacteria.
Posted 1/25/2009 9:58 PM (GMT 0)

mjw82704 said...
I find this so interesting. I have been following all of the posts that have to do with the fecal transplant. I keep having to force myself to focus on the scientific aspect of good bacteria etc so that I don't get too grossed out. In the back of my mind I have been thinking about doing it and using my son as a donor as subdued did her granddaughter. He is only 3 months 3 weeks old. I have plenty of it readily available..........Anyway do you think a good probotic like VSL would work as well if I used it as an enema? Maybe I should start there. I am not sure if I can muster up the strength to do the other just yet.

I can not say for sure but i have heard that using a newborn's feces may not contain all the benificial bacteria as a fully devloped healthy adult would, however this appears not to ring true because there were a few reported cases that were deemed a success using a newborn's feces. 

Now regarding your question about VSL3.  I believe that probiotic is the best and most effective one currently on the market.  Prior to the transplant i use to take 3 or 4 packs a day and had amazing results from it.  The only downfall was the cost.  Now as good as VSL3 is, the bacteria contained in VSL3 are obviously manufactured and only contain 8 differnet strains i believe.  Just as a previous member mentioned there are hundreds if not thousands of diffenet types of bacteria found in the human gut that have never been identified nor have their potential benifits been studied.  They do know that there are many of them that protect the human host and release certain chemicals in the body that help shut down the inflamatory response.  The most important thing to remember is that the manufactured bacteria in any probiotic supplement do NOT have the ability to implant themselves in the bowels and as a result of this you will need to continue to take it everyday.  The bacteria found in human feces are the only ones that have the ability to implant themselves.

Posted 1/25/2009 10:35 PM (GMT 0)

MAD said...

I can not say for sure but i have heard that using a newborn's feces may not contain all the benificial bacteria as a fully devloped healthy adult would, however this appears not to ring true because there were a few reported cases that were deemed a success using a newborn's feces.

I have also read this--that a newborn's feces may not contain all the beneficial bacteria that a fully developed adult's feces has.

There are advantages to using a newborn's feces, especially those from a baby who is breast feeding:

The feces are in a gooey, liquidy state. It's easier to use. Less gross to use. And the bacteria might (although there is no scientific evidence for this) have a better chance of taking hold and multiplying.

There is less worry of diseases. Babies haven't been alive long enough to have acquired many pathogens. This is especially important in my case, because I did the fecal transplantation myself. I didn't have access to test the feces for pathogens.

Newborns haven't lost any good bacteria yet. They still have the good bacteria that others may have lost from taking antibiotics.
Posted 1/26/2009 12:38 AM (GMT 0)

Probiotic said...

barbl said...

I would skip the nasty poop enema and take Probiotics smilewinkgrin

I'm certain mine was from a bacterial imbalance. Thats why the SCD diet works so well, you can't eat any carbs, which breakdown into sugar and feed the bad bacteria.

I have been on the SCD and have been taking multiple probiotics for YEARS, and I am still symptomatic, and pred-dependent now to prevent constant flaring.  Much as I believe in starving bad bacteria and in using probiotics, feces offers a far richer supply of probiotic bacteria on top of all this.  Like anything else, this therapy is an extreme longshot, but I think worth trying before surgery.

To the poster who asked about using VSL3 instead of a fecal infusion- bear in mind that feces contain HUNDREDS of strains of bacteria as a opposed to a handful, so I can't imagine that VSL3 or anything like that would come anywhere close as effective, assuming that this therapy would work at all.. 

MAD- if you read this- I am extremely interested in what specific tests you had to do on your brother.  If you can list these here for all to see, that would be fantastic.  Otherwise, please feel free to PM or email me via my profile.  I am inclined to take my chances with my girlfriends's stool as I don't really see what germs I can catch from her that I haven't already shared; and I am so close toi surgery at this point that I am willing to accept the risk.  But if you can get me the list of tests, I could start working on those in a hurry.  I am familiar with Borody's procedure needing an antibiotic "cleansing" phase but I would definitely NOT want to use any antibiotics.  They were responsible for past flares and fare not use any antibiotics anymore at this stage unless it is a matter of life and death.  OIn one of Borody's papers, in full text, the protocal is discussed in sufficient detail, I believe.  But the more you feel able to share, the better- though I will try and do the phone consult ... but in the meantime please do share what you can, starting with the list of tests if you are able.

Probiotic,

 

I will post for you that information as soon as i get back into work. I have the file there. That may be tomorrow or Tuesday. 

 

The other thing i did want to mention is that i would strongly advise you to contact Australia before doing the procedure because they have some very useful information.  You also might want to ask them about using your girlfriend as a donor because they told me males should be used as donors.  Not sure why that is but i can only assume it has something to do with the female hormones or reproductive system. 

 

Posted 1/26/2009 1:20 AM (GMT 0)
Hmm, no chance of me getting a male donor, so the procedure may be out for me then! (Well, never say never, as I do have male friends but wow, this would be an interesting request! Not to mention all the testing.) But I will take your advice and speak to Australia first. I'll look forward to your info. though- thanks.
Posted 1/26/2009 2:16 PM (GMT 0)

this is my first post. I have UC with my pain mostly in the mornings for four to five bowel movements and then a couple painful moments in the pm.  It seems as soon as I stand up first thing I get this horrible pain.  It is difficult with so many different opinions on what to do but I have to do something as I am missing work and missing life.  So far the doctors are no help.  I came off my prednisone 3 weeks ago and as soon as I did my symptoms came back.  I still take asacol and my question is this, is it safe to continue taking my asacol while trying the new things I have read on this website ie: Forvia, Probiotics, Digestive Advantage ect.? If anyone knows it would be great to get an answer.  It is nice to know that I am not alone and that, while its crapty so many are suffering from this, that I can talk to people who know what I am going through.

Thanks, asacol 2 pills 3 times a day

 

Posted 1/26/2009 8:18 PM (GMT 0)
I took Digestive Advantage & it didn't seem to do me much good. My GI recommended Align probiotic & my GI has declared me in remission. I take Lialda which is basically the same as Asacol. I don't think it will hurt you to take them both. Just make sure you introduce something new 1 at a time so you know which actually works or don't work.

Posted 1/27/2009 9:20 AM (GMT 0)
I would be very curious to hear more about why the donor shall be male. So if someone has more information on this, please let me know. Does the Australian clinic really suggest this nowadays? I don't think the intial fecal transplant reports suggested using males so there must be new information on this matter behind this recommendation.

Posted 1/28/2009 3:07 PM (GMT 0)

Probiotic said...
Hmm, no chance of me getting a male donor, so the procedure may be out for me then! (Well, never say never, as I do have male friends but wow, this would be an interesting request! Not to mention all the testing.) But I will take your advice and speak to Australia first. I'll look forward to your info. though- thanks.

As requested, here are the required blood and stool tests for HPI therapy.

Human Probiotic Infusion

Blood work and stool testing for patients and donors

• BLOOD

A) HIV

B) HEP A IgM, HEP B,C
CMV,EBV,RPR,TOXO

C) FBC,ESR,CLOTTING SCREEN, TSH,
ANA, U&E, CREAT, GLUC, LFT, RhF,
HLA – B 27, RED CELL FOLATE, B12,
ANTIGLIADIN Abs, ENDOMYSIAL Abs, CRP

D) H. PYLORI Abs.


• STOOL

A) CELLS

B) PARASITES


C) CULTURE INCLUDING CL DIFFICILE + TOXIN
YERSINIA, AEROMONAS, KLEBSIELLA OXYTOCA, CAMP JEJUNI, STAPH AUREUS.

ANTI-ADHESIN ANTIBODY TEST FOR E. HISTOLYTICA.
Posted 1/28/2009 4:17 PM (GMT 0)
Many thanks, MAD. How much did all these tests cost you for testing your bro? Just looking at these, I am figuring maybe $1000 or so? Most - and probably all- of these look like tests one could self-order online via directlabs.com which I currently use from time to time, but some may require seeing an alternative type MD to get the prescription.
Posted 1/28/2009 4:50 PM (GMT 0)

Probiotic said...
Many thanks, MAD. How much did all these tests cost you for testing your bro? Just looking at these, I am figuring maybe $1000 or so? Most - and probably all- of these look like tests one could self-order online via directlabs.com which I currently use from time to time, but some may require seeing an alternative type MD to get the prescription.

Probiotic,

No problem at all! Actually because i'm from Canada 99% of these tests were covered under our health care system. There was only one or two that had required a fee and i didn't test for them just because i found out what they were for and felt i didn't need to. I think one was for Celiac disease and i knew i didn't have that because i was biopsied for it previously.
Posted 1/28/2009 4:58 PM (GMT 0)

MAD said...

Probiotic said...
Many thanks, MAD. How much did all these tests cost you for testing your bro? Just looking at these, I am figuring maybe $1000 or so? Most - and probably all- of these look like tests one could self-order online via directlabs.com which I currently use from time to time, but some may require seeing an alternative type MD to get the prescription.

Probiotic,

No problem at all! Actually because i'm from Canada 99% of these tests were covered under our health care system. There was only one or two that had required a fee and i didn't test for them just because i found out what they were for and felt i didn't need to. I think one was for Celiac disease and i knew i didn't have that because i was biopsied for it previously.

But these tests were covered for your brother's blood and stool even though it wasn't you? 
Posted 1/28/2009 6:39 PM (GMT 0)

Probiotic said...

MAD said...



Probiotic said...

Many thanks, MAD. How much did all these tests cost you for testing your bro? Just looking at these, I am figuring maybe $1000 or so? Most - and probably all- of these look like tests one could self-order online via directlabs.com which I currently use from time to time, but some may require seeing an alternative type MD to get the prescription.

Probiotic,

No problem at all! Actually because i'm from Canada 99% of these tests were covered under our health care system. There was only one or two that had required a fee and i didn't test for them just because i found out what they were for and felt i didn't need to. I think one was for Celiac disease and i knew i didn't have that because i was biopsied for it previously.

But these tests were covered for your brother's blood and stool even though it wasn't you?

Yes even his tests were covered. In order to get the requisition for all the tests i went with my brother to his doctor's office and sat down with both my brother and his doctor and started explaining what i was going to do. After the doctor heard everything he was really amazed and intrigued by it and asked us to keep him posted on my progress after. I handed him a copy of all the tests i needed done for my brother and he started writing away onto the requisition form. I then took my brother to the hospital lab with the requisition form and started explaining all over. I explained that it was imperative that he gets tested for all these because of the possible risk involved of transmitting a disease.
Posted 1/28/2009 7:05 PM (GMT 0)

MAD said

Probiotic,

No problem at all! Actually because i'm from Canada 99% of these tests were covered under our health care system. There was only one or two that had required a fee and i didn't test for them just because i found out what they were for and felt i didn't need to. I think one was for Celiac disease and i knew i didn't have that because i was biopsied for it previously.

I'm in Canada too (alberta) and have been tested for Celiacs and was not charged for it.

:)

Posted 1/28/2009 7:12 PM (GMT 0)

pb4 said...
MAD said

Probiotic,

No problem at all! Actually because i'm from Canada 99% of these tests were covered under our health care system. There was only one or two that had required a fee and i didn't test for them just because i found out what they were for and felt i didn't need to. I think one was for Celiac disease and i knew i didn't have that because i was biopsied for it previously.

I'm in Canada too (alberta) and have been tested for Celiacs and was not charged for it.


:)

Yeah this may be a different test for celiac though. I think it's more accurate. Check with your lab or doctor to see if you were tested for these:

ANTIGLIADIN Abs, ENDOMYSIAL Abs

If not, that’s probably why you weren’t charged for it.
Posted 1/28/2009 7:28 PM (GMT 0)
I could probably get 99% of the costs covered by private insurance for these tests on me, via my alternative MD, but being in the US, I can't imagine how I would get them covered for my girlfriend for purposes of being tested as a donor for me. Of course, if she had an MD who would rx her the tests, then she would be covered by her own insurance... but I'll probably just fork over what's needed. Since we share germs already as a couple, I'd think some of the tests would be a waste of time though. Not all, but some.  I'll ask the Borody Center when I call them. 
Posted 1/28/2009 8:01 PM (GMT 0)

Probiotic said...
I could probably get 99% of the costs covered by private insurance for these tests on me, via my alternative MD, but being in the US, I can't imagine how I would get them covered for my girlfriend for purposes of being tested as a donor for me. Of course, if she had an MD who would rx her the tests, then she would be covered by her own insurance... but I'll probably just fork over what's needed. Since we share germs already as a couple, I'd think some of the tests would be a waste of time though. Not all, but some. I'll ask the Borody Center when I call them.

I understand where your coming from in terms of getting your girlfriend tested. I had to go through this with my brother's doc and fortunately he ordered the tests for my brother without any hesitation. It may be different for you because your in the US and you have to deal with insurance companies. They may require a reason for your girl friend to do all these tests and your fecal transplant may not be enough reason for them.

I also agree that all tests may not be necessary to do but i can tell you that Australia’s Centre for Digestive Disease's will not recommend you skip out on any tests. I know because i tried getting away with a few and they told me not to but i skipped out on them anyways. They may also ask you to try and find a male donor.

A good place to start is making sure your girlfriend follows these criteria:

• The potential donor must have a healthy bowel motion every day.
• No history of bowel problems (eg no constipation, diarrhoea, colitis etc)
• Is not on any medications that may interfere with stool viability (eg. antibiotics).

Have her answer these questions as well:

1. When did you last use antibiotics?

2. Have you experienced ‘traveller’s diarrhoea’?

3. Do you or have you worked within a hospital, health care facility or child care facility?

4. Please describe your stool quality ie is it soft, hard or runny?

5. How frequently do you go to the toilet in a day ie once per day, twice per day or more, or once every two to three days?

6. Do you currently have or have you recently experienced any type of abdominal discomfort ie pain / cramping or swelling / bloating?

7. Do you currently suffer from excessive flatulence (gas)?

8. Do you currently experience nausea or heartburn?

9. Have you ever noticed blood in your stool?


These questions will help answer how good the quality of her bacteria flora really is.
Posted 1/28/2009 9:02 PM (GMT 0)
This is an great string and I see many common themes. There is a very interesting article in the New York Times today call, "Babies Know: A Little Dirt Is Good for You" and it can be read on their web page see link below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/health/27brod.html?ref=health

The human body is very complex and I'm fascinated by how little we know, but I'm not surprised at all. Mother Natures has been tinkering with our evolution for about 200,000 years (approximate time the modern human has been on earth, per Wikipedia) and modern medicine is about 100 years old or less.
Posted 1/28/2009 9:51 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, MAD for posting that list of questions... I know she has had diarhea occasionally for a day or two but of course nothing like my frequency with IBD, and she has never had blood in her stool. But I'll have to see what they say about a female donor.
Posted 1/29/2009 2:46 PM (GMT 0)
To flesh out this good thread, I just dug up a link to the full text articles on this therapy... If you select this link from Borody's center in Australia, you will see a list of publications on the right, including several pertaining to fecal bacteriotherapy...

http://www.cdd.com.au/html/expertise/publications.html
Posted 2/9/2009 4:49 AM (GMT 0)
Hi all, I just signed up after reading this great thread. I was diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis about 5 years ago after my first time water skiing (swallowed a TON of dirty lake water). Whenever I eat carbs, I have up to 20 bouts of D per day, often very bloody. about 4 1/2 years ago, after upping my prednisone to 80mg per day (which reduced D to twice per day), the doctor finally said "diet has nothing to do with this ... we need to remove your colon". I haven't been back to a doctor since, and up until recently have been somewhat OK by keeping carbs low and eating no gluten.

Now the only way I can maintain remission is almost 0 carbs. Steak, chicken, salad, oil, etc. The carb response tells me that this has to be bacterial/fungal, but all the tests came back negative. Fecal transplant is sounding pretty tempting, but since the doc said my entire colon was impacted, do any of you know if an enema would be enough? Could I use a long tube and get it closer to my ileum?

Or ... has anyone tried making their own pills by filling empty capsules with the donor feces? I know this sounds gross, but it sounds like people with larger areas of infection have had more success with the application being done via a tube to the stomach/small intestines (which doesn't seem feasible at home). The only alternative I could think of was homemade poo pills (for lack of a better term).

Thanks so much, keep up the informative thread!
Lindy
Posted 2/9/2009 8:32 AM (GMT 0)
I don't believe you can make pills. Besides the safetety reason, I think it's not possible because it will take too much time to get them through, so the good bacteria will die on the way and there is too little bacteria.

In the doctor you can also use endoscopy instead of colonoscopy. But if you do it at home on your own by enema, then I would suggest repeating the procedure several times and using enough liquid to get that as far as possbile

Posted 2/9/2009 2:57 PM (GMT 0)
WTH? Never heard of this. It sounds gross but if it works, it works. But I wonder if helminthic therapy might be more viable.
Posted 2/9/2009 3:07 PM (GMT 0)
I was thinking the same thing about the pills, but realized I could enteric coat them to pass through the stomach and survive digestion. Definitely gross, but better than paying thousands for a doctor (my insurance won't cover this type of therapy unless I have C-Diff)
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