Histamine intolerance Gary? Pathogenkiller?

So my daughter's been having hives and rashes which have worsened in the Spring. She seems to not tolerate high histamine foods. This started when we put her on paleo, which really helped her UC but then she has flared with the change of seasons.
I do believe the HI starts from the gut and at this point I am considering surgery. But, I can't obviously find any information about the connection between the two (i'm considering it a "EIM" of UC - she doesn't have any others). Anyone have any thoughts or knowledge about this? Any probiotics (have never done a thing for us, including daily fts for 3 months but i'm willing to try) or supps to use for histamine intolerance? I'm looking into the methylation thing as well, it might apply here. Thanks!

***Another way to reduce histamine levels is to supply antioxidants. Free radicals are produced from both external sources and internal natural biochemical reactions. Too many free radicals provoke histamine reactions.

****There are few substances in your body that match the importance of glutathione to maintaining your overall good health and well being. The body’s most potent natural antioxidant and detoxifier, Glutathione neutralizes harmful free radicals, flushes away toxins, supports cell health and integrity, and strengthens immune system activity.

Why is Glutathione Important?
Today’s environment is often plagued by pollution in the air we breathe, the water we drink and in the ground that grows our food. Chemicals, pesticides and other toxins make their way into our bodies, and can cause harm to our cells and systems if left unchecked. L-Glutathione, a tripeptide made up of three amino acids called cysteine, glycine, and glutamic acid, is produced by the body.

Glutathione is a very powerful antioxidant that protects the body by targeting and destroying reactive oxygen molecules and free radicals. It is found in high concentrations in the liver, where it binds to heavy metals such as mercury and lead, as well as chemical pollutants, and transforms them into a form that can be easily flushed out of the body via enzymatic pathways.


----WHY would histamine levels tell you about methylation function?

Methionine is a methyl carrying amino acid + ATP/magnesium = SAMe.
SAMe goes throughout the body delivering methyl groups to over 400 different reactions.

One way histamine is de-activated (eliminated) is by receiving a methyl group from SAMe. So if there is low methylation, there is low SAMe, and the histamine levels are higher because of the lack of methyl groups to deactivate it. If there is high methylation, there is higher amounts of SAMe, and lots of histamine can be deactivated.

Where does this histamine come from?
One source is when the amino acid histidine looses a carboxyl group. Some bacteria can faciliate this conversion too. So if you have a bacteria overgrowth, it may be using up histidine and converting it to more histamine. Another big source is directly from foods. Some people may have a problem eliminating histamine from their foods and this causes reactions which LOOK LIKE allergies, but are not true IgE mediated allergies. You may see a histamine reaction which is just too high levels of histamine and not because an antigen caused an immune reaction to something.

What lowers histamine?
Taking an antihistamine is one way. Antihistamines typically work by either inhibiting the release of histamine (like during an immune reaction) or blocking the uptake of histamine (like from food). Magnesium and vitamin C are natural anti-histamines. Vitamin C can destroy histamine directly. This is why these supplements are recommended when you are sick for any reason.

Another way to reduce histamine levels is to supply antioxidants. Free radicals are produced from both external sources and internal natural biochemical reactions. Too many free radicals provoke histamine reactions.

What does histamine do?
Histamine is located throughout the entire body. In many instances, it causes inflammation, runny nose, itching, hives, sore throat, coughing, flushing, headache and all those other typical allergy reactions. In the gut, it signals the production of gastric acid. This is why some remedies for acid stomach are really antihistamines. In the brain, it functions like a neurotransmitter. A couple of functions include affecting hunger or feeding, and also sleep/wake cycles (the circadian rhythm). A bit more histamine keeps you awake, and lower histamine levels help you sleep. This is why many antihistamines make you drowsy. Some newer antihistamines have been developed to get around this issue.

The role of antioxidants in the immune system is multifaceted as they can serve to either suppress or enhance the immune response. Depending on the desired response, different antioxidants can play different roles in balancing the immune response effectively in an individual. Beta-carotene, selenium, vitamin C, and vitamin E are all examples of exogenous antioxidants. In addition to these that come from our diet, the body also has a system of enzymes, which form the endogenous antioxidants. Together, they work to eliminate free radicals from the body.

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How does mercury toxicity affect methylation?

Mercury toxicity may disrupt this cycle making it practically unsolvable until the metals are removed.

Or a "busted methylation" as Newport calls it.

I take the digestive enzyme DAO which I buy online from Swanson. It is very effective in eliminating excess dietary histamine.

Thanks Gary. I will give her the DAO but I'm wondering what may have caused it. I know that IBD and mucosal damage causes a decrease in DAO production and that's likely it after four years of this BS. I know you've done a lot of research on this and have a good grasp. Does that sound plausible? If so, I will kick her colon to the curb as I've had enough.

killcolitis said...
Oh, just saw your first reply, thanks! yeah, i'll read that yasuko link. I just can not manage the $3000 for tests. actually I can, but I can't run around to labs trying to get them to do it and send it to the US (I'm assuming it's blood testing and not saliva/urine? ). What is L-mthf? Do you give that with the b6 etc??? as for b12, she's never been deficient and oddly she's been high. I know paleo is a high histamine diet but it did wonders for her gut. Arrrrgh. I totally need to be committed now.

Alot of folks are trying the protocol out without the tests. I did not do her tests and Im undecided if I will if I keep improving. There are support groups and she has a discussion forum where folks try to help each other out.. they do keep pushing tests, but again, you are talking about a large population of children that arent able to give appropriate feed back because of their autism so the tests are important. Your daughter can tell you how she feels.

L-methyltetrahydrofolate. Its the usable form of folic acid. The kind they put in our foods and we take in supplements must be converted by the body into a usable form. atleast 30% of the population has genetic polymorphisms that limit that conversion. You give them a bcomplex that has b in 5p5 form.. but my doctor doesnt recommend b6 supplementation directly, he contends the body will correct when it takes what it needs from food as you open the rest of your methylation pathway. b6 supplementation is sketch cause its the only b vitamin known to have toxicity. I wouldnt supplement a kid with it, I dont think.. even if she is high in B12, that isnt nessecarily a true number it could also be trapped , high because it doesnt have the other components of the cycle that it needs to convert to glutatione.

You say it did wonders, and I have no doubt.. I bet she had some sibo going on.. but what are her current symptoms intestine wise?

I can speak a bit to SIBO.

The symptoms are excessive gas (especially burping), belly pain, feeling full from little food, and belly distension. A lot of GIs, including Bo Shen at CC, treat SIBO empirically with a course of Xifaxan rather than doing a breath test. My GI *does* order the breath test -- it's very easy, just time consuming (you have to sit in the office for three hours, IIRC, and give a breath sample every 15 minutes or so). When I had the breath test I was pretty much off the charts positive. Unfortunately SIBO was not driving my UC problems (just making me burp a lot) so it was impossible to tell if the Xifaxan "worked" for me or not.

In any case, Xifaxan is usually pretty well tolerated and works VERY well for SIBO. Might be worth a trial run.

A bit of constipation but not severe, though this has happened in the past. pain is not one of her common symptoms thankfully (usually only in a severe flare). She had scopes on Monday, awaiting path results and she had gas/pain from those which is to be expected. Xiafaxin, she was on it for a while last year for UC (trialled by her GI) and tolerated it well. it helped with the bleeding a lot for a while and the frequency too but nothing else. Then she eventually got worse, and of course it was a similar time of year (early spring) when the xiafaxin stopped working and she flared badly. I've had a top pathologist review/stain her slides for mastocytosis but they were clear which was a relief. I know mast cells play a role in IBD but with her skin issues I'm thinking MCAS. WHich i'm hoping NOT. Saw an allergist (top in the city) who's actually heard of it and thinks it's not it/low probability but we'll do tryptase next week. The other blood/urine (methyl histamine 24) have to be sent out to the states and of course no one knows how to do that here. As per the symptoms of SIBO, I don't think she has it ATM?

unformed stools (re the xiafaxin).
Pathogens, why that instead of allergies? why are pathogens related to the change in seasons?
low histamine diet is VERY limited. and not nutrient dense at all.I know there's a low histamine chef website but she uses a LOT of veg which isn't great for the UC or I'd do it. ??
I believe the paleo helped the UC for the reasons it helped everyone's UC but then the histamine built up in her system and then with the change of seasons it was too much. do you know anythign about this diet? it's very hard to balance the two issues.
i'm using ketotofen not benedryl but will likely add an antihistamine.
?? The allergist wants to wait for test results (though it seems I can't even get some of them done here) but was pretty dismissive about mcas. He said it was a low probability and he treats a lot of it. He expects everythign to be negative. if so, do you think this is a UC issue causing a decrease in DAO/MAO etc? I feel it's an EIM? does that make any sense to you?
And, by the way, thank you!!!! I know you have better things to do and likely many people asking you for help/advice/info.

Cheers! I 've spent years trying to determine an underlying pattern to her UC and this (histamine) seems to be what's emerging. You're right, I need to get my head around everything you've written above and do some more research, wait for the 23andme results (I expect mthfr will be there) and then see. I'm going to start the supplementation anyway. What do you mean liver support - the mthfr/detox stuff or milk thistle/something else? Now off to read...

So, I found this

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/do-b12-and-folate-increase-histamine.10748/

The harm in opening up methylation could come in doing it too quickly. Ramp up slow, please.

Benydryl or the antihistamines, isn't the ketetiofen an anti histamine?, should help mediate.. But supplementing dao, ultimately while lifting methyl cycle blocks might be the best strategy. Taking a load off her poor gut and immune system should let her body start detoxing and kicking any pathogens that might have hitched a ride in because she was weakened.

I honestly just don't know if you focus on dao and low histamine support first.. Then you try to unlock the methyl cycle or you do them concurrently.. Or if you address mehylation if it will all just unlock itself.

I had high histamine that has come down with the methylation cycle support. But histamine wasn't my primary, it was just a symptom. Hard to know what is primary and what is just a symptom, ya know? Do you think she has always reacted to histamine, looking back?

No she's not eating a lot of fruit/veg that's fresh but she is/was eating some. ? Why, are you thinking of something in particular bookworm?
Yeah, I don't think this was a causitive factor to her UC by any means. Nor do I think she doesn't have UC (whatever that is) but some other underlying thing. I know she has IBD. And I think this is a result. She's in the past been able to tolerate a lot of probiotics etc without getting worse, and I think people with MCAS can't. But something's definitely changed - possibly a build up/change in gut flora over time with the meds/supps etc that have overloaded her poor system. I've ordered the supplements and am going to start, will look into lower histamine foods and dao. I do feel this has to do with her damaged colon and the depletion of DAO and the mess in terms of bacteria that's in there. Hope this works! Thanks all.

I am heterozygous for MTHFR A1298C and C677T. Im still him hawing on whose test to do. Ill probably do 23 and me instead of yasko. If you buy multiple tests you get 20% off of each additional tests too, so I can do my whole family for cheaper then yasko's BUT it doesnt test all the things yasko does. Infact, I think it only tests one of the MTHFR mutations. From what I understand having one of each is pretty bad. Also, 23 and me is hard to interpret, you need to feed it into some kind of SNP program to make good sense of it.

I just am hoping that things keep going the way they are going and I dont really need to go farther. I totally think my symptoms are mostly due to lyme, myco and strep.. I think my ROOT problem has been my MTHFR not allowing my body to rid myself of them or process toxins. The more I read about these mutations the more I think that they are the key to everything, seriously.. to all chronic disease. Yes, there are other factors.. many many many other factors, but if you do not fix your basic life giving enzyme cycles you arent going to ever be healthy.

That's why when I hear things like
I react to all drugs
I feel HORRIBLE on antibiotics
I have a sulfite allergy
I have a histamine intolerance
I have allergies, asthma

I think of Methylation or other cycle defects. The studies are that a significant amount of the population has atleast one of these mutations.

couple links
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1774509/
gut.bmj.com/content/45/3/389.abstract?ijkey=9baa2662aa69ca9baf30b4d7a83e5a7e87fcbd3b&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

On top of these mutations there are others like CBS, which is what I bet your friend's son has..
www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

It all gets deep in science really fast.. so that is the problem with trying to figure it out right now. And its such a new science everyone has a million opinions. That is why naturopaths arent talking to you about it. It's so new. There are only handfuls of people treating this stuff. But the ones who are are seeing AMAZING results.

PK, yeah my friend's son has the CBS c699t (How do you know this??). And he has two mthfr mutations, I believe 23andme test for three? I'll pass on the link you posted to her. Thanks! I'll read those links now. I think this is a major key for us too, it's becoming very obvious.
Bookworm, yeah, i know about oral allergy sydrome and in fact the allergist mentioned it the other day. I don't think it's it though, it's pretty clear to me that this is related to histamine. I'm trying to remove the biggest offenders and transition her diet while we wait for the supps to arrive.
Now off to read some more about probiotic strains and histamine. Good times.