My latest UC theory-Call it part X

This is what I was worried about... And if they can get there so can others...

uggggggggggg....

Awesome find though!

On the oxygen side of things - I just realized that excess mucus is like a big trap for oxygen bubbles and probably oxygen. I'm trying to think of a way to help describe it, but it would have to do with fluid dynamics.. Here's the only plain example I think of at the moment - Next time you yack up a thick ball of phlegm, spit it in the bottom of a glass, then pour water over it from you're aerated tap. Or maybe on a flat surface would be better. I think you'll see a ton of bubbles adhere to the mucus.

Anyway was just trying to think of off the wall ways in which excess oxygen could build up in the colon where the bad guys could convert to aerobic from.

Mark: Its funny since earlier on the stool microbiome I mentioned we don't have the complete picture

of what is going on just from stool analysis, and that we need mucosa analysis,

 then this pops up and gives us some idea. Even though it is a small sample size,perhaps enough to generalize.

Anyhow I find it real interesting that the healthy controls had zero intracellular bacteria.

We might have defective immunity,defective autophagy,barrier defects, or all at the same time.

But as we learn fro the oxygen hypothesis,all these facultative anaerobic e.coli should not be there in the first place in high numbers. 

As my cousin Vinny would say, I think I am going with option B, barrier defect. which then leads to inflammation

and then, extra facultative anaerobes/dysbiosis, then perhaps defective immunity.

Why do I come to this guess at least for UC.

FT can put some into remission,it would seem it corrects somehow the dysbiosis,although

it may correct barrier defects by supplying bacteria that deactivates protease,might even fix immune

fuction,no idea.

Antibiotics can trigger UC,they kill off good bacteria and I believe can disrupt barrier function.

After quitting smoking in 1977,this gave me a non suppressed immune system,then bam UC 1980.

Did my immune system suddenly go defective,killing off good bacteria and creating inflammation.

If it did then very strange. Since I was no longer inhaling carbon monoxide,did I then have more oxygen in the

colon and create a bloom of facultative anaerobes,dont know.

Probably a zillion things going on that I don't know about or am just plain wrong.

But interesting to speculate.

Old Mike

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 9/1/2013 7:27:02 AM (GMT-6)

And again as for why the crazy immune response - they use/activate our inflammation pathway (TNF-a pathway) as a source or means to reproduce - so our bodies cannot shut it off or hit the off switch so to speak.

Thinking out loud - but maybe Remicade and Humira are effective not so much for actually blocking inflammation, but really though preventing the bacteria from being able to reproduce in large - it takes away or removes their TNF-a benefit... It's easy to see how this could be mistaken by researchers.

Perhaps some or most of the e-coli or pathogentic bacteria still remain, they just don't trigger the TNF-a response they need until the drug is stopped - which is might be why most experience a big flare after stopping.

Maybe we can chew away at ways in which one could try and combat... maybe search around and see just how well or what types of fiber prevent adhesion - or what strengthens the mucus barrier - butyrate and such.. Or natural antibiotics, or maybe there's multiple things worth trying but in a big combined effort... Like a modified Organic SCD type approach perhaps including resistant starch/probiotics/butyrate or something. Who knows really.

Ideally I guess searching for anything aside from biologics that has been shown to reduce inflamation via TNF-a pathway.

Heck... I'm almost considering adding Humira to the AA thing like Lemmon - she seems to be doing very well on this approach.

3.5+ billion years develops a lot of intelligence... just sayin again... haha

That's quite the article (science daily).

I'm still at a complete loss of what to try...

Maybe like daily fecal transplant or something from someone very healthy... combined with something else (diet) maybe...

I'm at a total loss.

Also in one of the articles either that I posted or perhaps have on my computer spoke of how adherent-invasive Escherichia coli infected and caused the release of TNF-a for their reproduction, BUT that this effect was multiplied many times when other bacteria such as C-diff, salmonella and some kind that started with a j was present...

So it looks like the bad guys are teaming up...

And one quick thought - maybe the bad response or worsening of symptoms for some people from fecal transplants/some probiotics are actually the bad bacteria triggering these symptoms or inflammation to fight the good bacteria off...

Maybe the key is to stick it out long term... not give up per say.

Mark and OM, have you researched biofilms that may be protecting the bad bugs? It's an area of research that Dr Borody is working on.

3 back-to-back rounds of antibiotics for stubborn sinus infection. UC diagnosis after 6 months of crazy urgency and seeing food in my poop.

I avoid then like the plague and promote probiotics.

Remember the bacterial flora signature for UC is different from CD and both are different from healthy individual.

WHOA: Perhaps another way to fix the dysbiosis mess,without FT.

I can agree with this theory,but perhaps there is something else going on.

Bacillus Subtilis is an obgilate aerobe only grows in air.

Ok so what, there is little oxygen in the gut,but in our case there is via the oxygen hypothesis,

so if the subtilis comes out of spore phase and starts to grow it will perhaps use up the oxygen from the

 the inflammation, depriving the facultative anaerobes of some energy and letting the obligate ones grow.

I have taken Primal Defense in the past probably twice between say 15 and 25 years ago,did not do anything good or bad that I remember,but it is also loaded with other probiotics that I perhaps really don't want.

Trying to find a single strain,might not find it.

Bio-Kult claims to have the highest amount of Subtilis.

It seems that in Vietnam people wipe out their gut bacteria on a routine basis and fix themselves with

subtilis,have to look into IBD rates in Vietnnam,no info.

I hope that this is the way out.

Old Mike

http://gapsdiet.com/uploads/Newsletter3.pdf

Counter point of safety. Need to look more into safety.

http://www.essentialformulas.com/news/Nan_Fuchs_September_Newslet.pdf

http://www.probiotic.org/bacillus-subtilis.htm

dam looks like will have to resort to a canine chew,not sure yet what else is in there

http://www.amazon.com/Protegrity-Canine-Probiotic-Soft-Chews/dp/B00552K5HG

dam put too much crap in them

http://www.kemin.com/images/files/1813_Protegrity_GI_BR-B_V06_Display.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22749516

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19374258

seems to be contained in Natto,it also generates a protease nattokinase

so full circle may not be good for UC due to protease. Will keep on looking at this.

Also up regulation of immune response might not be a good thing,not sure.

http://www.sporegen.com/bacilluspro.html

Natto wow may really up regulate immune sys,might be dangerous for us,

extra TNF and inos,oh my. I am trying to get rid of that stuff.

http://sciencealerts.com/stories/1995755/Immunomodulatory_effects_of_Bacillus_subtilis_natto_B4_spores_on_murine_macrophages.html

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 9/3/2013 2:24:45 PM (GMT-6)

Another thought occurred to me... Regarding mucous... An old friend who kind of went crazy once went into a rant about having bad teeth and heart disease... It sounded a bit insane but given the general connectedness of the human body and the major role microbes play, it doesnt sound so odd to me now.

My thought was about phlegm... Ive always had a bit of a phlegmy throat, as has my dad. Now if you have this youre always (well, somewhat often at least) hawking it up and spitting it.. He was always a swallower, probably so as to not be spitting often.. maybe throat phlem makes it all the way into the colon. Not so impossible, Im sure it doesnt get too "digested".... Anyway, gross, yes, sorry. Just a thought though. I wonder if anyone has looked at mouth bacteria/biome and compared to whats down in the gut??

My naturopath treats my inflammation daily and I am in remission makes sense any part or organ of the body that's gets swollen and inflamed would cause havoc

mum of 3

 

Here OM - There's no way I can read this tonight, but maybe it will interest you:

Environmental and Gut Bacteroidetes: The Food Connection
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3129010/

Also there's a ton of related papers on the right hand side that are of a lot of interest: This one stood out to me based on the Easter/Western Diet thing
Comparison of the fecal microflora in rural Japanese and urban Canadians: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3747865/

Heavy duty Mark:
What I get out of all of this is we need to eat more dirt/fresh veggies,that are not contaminated with pesticides nor perhaps washed with chlorine/more lacto fermented veggies.
It might kill us or cure us, don't know.
Old Mike

@ Nicecupoftea...

Here I'll post this here as well - you might like it (immune and autoimmune related) medicalxpress.com/news/2013-08-immunology-white-blood-cells-stripes.html#nRlv and this one in case you missed mikes' other post medicalxpress.com/news/2013-09-body-safety-procedure-autoimmune-disease.html