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Study suggesting UC is "Systemic" Immune System issue - not just confined to the Colon

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Posted 10/30/2013 2:49 PM (GMT 0)
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3732609/

Lactobacillus casei Shirota - Might be worth a try if it's out there...
Posted 10/30/2013 5:20 PM (GMT 0)
not sure if some of the capsules include the strain, but it is the only strain in this drink

www.yakultusa.com/yakult-nutrition-information.php
Posted 10/30/2013 5:23 PM (GMT 0)
I cant find pills with that strain,and the Yakult does not seem to be sold in any location near to me.

Another thing of course that is going on with us is that we have broken tolerance,possibly to all kinds of stuff.
om

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/30/2013 11:59:13 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/30/2013 5:26 PM (GMT 0)
I felt as if most of this was in latin but I got the gist of it. Interesting.
Posted 10/30/2013 5:42 PM (GMT 0)

Wikipedia said...
Among the best-documented, probiotics L.casei, L. casei DN-114001, and L. casei Shirota have been extensively studied and are widely available as BIO-K Plus functional foods (see Actimel, Yakult).

Yakult is not sold anywhere near Kansas.

Actimel (the DN-114001 strain) is also called DanActive, which is in a lot of supermarkets - but it is the "other" l. casi. strain

BIO-K makes a bunch of probiotic products, and does have one formula that includes L. casi, but was not clear about which strain.
Posted 10/30/2013 5:44 PM (GMT 0)
I didn't actually read the study.. but I do agree with the premise! Why else would UC'ers be more prone to eye things, uveitis & such, & thyroid things, other immune related disorders??? Faulty immune system, and no way to re-set it. Only suppress it.
Posted 10/30/2013 5:49 PM (GMT 0)
I don't think it's so cut and dry. I think when they figure UC out; there will be many subsets of the disease. Some people continue to have UC mainfestations after colectomies, while others, like me, have no other AI issues or manifestations. One more reason why I think a cure is no where near; the disease does not present itself the same from patient to patient.

Sue
Posted 10/30/2013 6:08 PM (GMT 0)
Then we have this,from Europe that says probiotics are all BS.

om

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8074182/Probiotic-drinks-do-not-aid-health-Europe-says.html

Posted 10/30/2013 6:17 PM (GMT 0)
whatever the prevalence of these extra-intestinal manifestations, the one in the gut, IBD, seems to be the worst.

I wondered how similar different strains of L. casei were. I found one article comparing some properties (mostly their affinity for binding to lectin. As I read lectins are proteins on the surface of T-cels that bind to sugars on the surface of bacteria cells.). The link below is for a figure from the article comparing 4 stains, and YIY 9029 is Yakult (Shirota).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3127709/figure/F3/

it is very distinct form the others. if the benificial effect is related to ONLY the CSA spike, then only the strain in Yakult would do. if the benefit is related to AT LEAST the CSA spike, then the strains 006 and 0180 would also do. I don't know if one of these strains is the L. casei in DanActive.

Interesting enough, the Shirota strain was genetically engineered form strain 0180 by knocking out some genes.

the article the figure came from said...
YIT 9018, the parental strain of YIT 9029 which was produced by removing bacteriophage [phi]FSW from the YIT 9018 genome

While I am not fond of bullies like Monsanto, I am not opposed to the concept of GM foods. Some people are, and use terms like FrankenFood, and seek to limit/end all research on GM techniques. Yet these same people are often very bullish on "natural" remedies like probiotics. There might be some cognitive dissonance if they stopped to consider that this probiotic was a FrankenBiotic. (But in all fairness some would say that knocking out genes is is th eOK GM, and the bad GM is inserting genes.)
Posted 10/30/2013 6:28 PM (GMT 0)
This vegan yogurt starter has Lactobacillus casei.

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/vegan-dairy-free-yogurt-starter.html

The species names for yogurt bacterias are screwed up though. Disagreements between scientists and reclassification plus priobiotic/yogurt maker BS and attempts to patent.

Guess which of these is the strains in VSL#3 and which is a common commercial yogurt ingredients list?

Streptococcus thermophilus
Bifidobacterium breve
Bifidobacterium longum
Bifidobacterium infantis
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus paracasei
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. Bulgaricus

or

Bifidobacterium lactis
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis
Streptococcus thermophilus
Posted 10/30/2013 9:06 PM (GMT 0)
give up the answer, AZYooper, I can't stan a guessing game. Which one is which probiotic mix??? And what yogurt, is it that Activia? Which I find kind of gross... really sweet!
Posted 10/30/2013 9:19 PM (GMT 0)
I go to work and miss all the fun here!

Without looking anything up whatsoever I'm going to go with option number#2...

I seem to notice most commercial yogurt makers nowadays don't even list their bacteria. They just say "Bacterial Cultures" on the back...

Maybe it's a trick question?? I'm still going with Option #2 lol

EDIT: Either that or they are both actually the same... so the commercial yogurt is no different than VLS#3..

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 10/30/2013 3:22:10 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/30/2013 9:24 PM (GMT 0)
It's amazing how the absence of one bacteria strain can make or break our immune system. I know someone who achieved instant remission with the bifidus infantis strain or align, so it a study like this makes sense.

These bacteria work together to eradicate the bad guys and a missing link indicates sub-optimal immune function.
Posted 10/30/2013 9:27 PM (GMT 0)
It's #1 but I think researched them and a couple are two names for the same thing.

There is a lot of interesting stuff on that site I posted.

I still make VSL #3 yogurt because it costs less than yogurt starter packets from that company.I do want to try some of the heirloom(reusable) cultures.
Posted 10/30/2013 9:30 PM (GMT 0)
What's #1, VSL or the yogurt? (I'll have you know I've been refreshing my browser like every 30 seconds to get an answer! )
Posted 10/30/2013 9:32 PM (GMT 0)
VSL #3 is the first one.

The second one is sold by the company I linked to and I think plain Dannon uses it.

Oh and Mountain High is

L. bulgaricus
S. thermophilus
L. acidophilus
B. bifidus
L. casei

Post Edited (AZYooper) : 10/30/2013 3:47:21 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/30/2013 10:36 PM (GMT 0)
Darn got that wrong!... lol.

@stealth - that's extra super interesting actually. I've head of this once before as well - And from my GI of all people. Said he has had patients go into remission from time to time on probiotics only - but no two patients ever took the same thing. He says the same thing as what's said on the board here - what works for some doesn't work for others.

I think this might be why he is open to "alternative" approaches compared to my previous GI's.
Posted 10/30/2013 10:55 PM (GMT 0)
@DBwithUC

Probiotic Lactobacillus reuteri biofilms produce antimicrobial and anti-inflammatory factors www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2180-9-35.pdf

The above made me start to look for reuteri to try.. but then as I was going through the probiotics bottles reading the bacteria listed I kept seeing numbers after on some - like L. Reuteri HA-188 or different numbers. So I came home and re-looked at the paper and it was a different strain (I think). Now I am coming across these numbers like L. reuteri ATCC 6475 in the above.

Been sitting here trying to digest and make sense of it. And thinking wait a minute - we're all running out buying this stuff (probiotics in general to try) and there's a chance it's doing zero for us as the papers suggest if we are buying the wrong strain... or worse maybe having a negative effect.

Also there was a similar thing to L. plantarum - A specific strain having positive effects - so off I go to look and see if I can find it (no luck) - come home, read the paper closely again and it turns out they genetically engineered this strain to to express more of whatever was providing the "health" benefit.

Aside from confusing, this whole monkey'ing around with gene expression and bacteria and so on makes me nervous. Or hesitant.

It's to the point where one doesn't know what to think anymore.
Posted 10/30/2013 11:13 PM (GMT 0)
I've said all along that those taking "probiotics" need to make sure they are helping because it has been seen many times on here where one brand helps someone and does the opposite in someone else. I hate it when someone just says they are taking "probiotics". There are umpteen million different kinds and just taking "probiotics" is not going to get it. There are actually studies on VSL claiming remission and Mutaflor too I believe. I think it all boils down to which strains a particular person is low on and repopulating the gut with this one strain may be beneficial. Then again the very opposite could be true because if our body's immune system is attacking and killing one strain of probiotic, causing it to be less populated in our guts, introducing more of this one probiotic could actually rev up our immune systems even more, causing further damage. It seems that just about everyone benefits from a particular probiotic. The challenge is finding the one in particular which will help you and it could be more than just one strain. If we ever get to the point where they can do like a fingerprint test of your gut microbia and identify which strains you are lacking, it could be very valuable information.
Posted 10/31/2013 12:13 AM (GMT 0)

garylouisville said...
I've said all along that those taking "probiotics" need to make sure they are helping because it has been seen many times on here where one brand helps someone and does the opposite in someone else. I hate it when someone just says they are taking "probiotics". There are umpteen million different kinds and just taking "probiotics" is not going to get it. There are actually studies on VSL claiming remission and Mutaflor too I believe. I think it all boils down to which strains a particular person is low on and repopulating the gut with this one strain may be beneficial. Then again the very opposite could be true because if our body's immune system is attacking and killing one strain of probiotic, causing it to be less populated in our guts, introducing more of this one probiotic could actually rev up our immune systems even more, causing further damage. It seems that just about everyone benefits from a particular probiotic. The challenge is finding the one in particular which will help you and it could be more than just one strain. If we ever get to the point where they can do like a fingerprint test of your gut microbia and identify which strains you are lacking, it could be very valuable information.

I agree with this because VSL #3 DS created more issues for me. I have an overgrowth of lactobacillus and an undergrowth of bifudus strains.

There is no one size fits all probiotic and they absolutely need to be based on individual disease profiles.
Posted 10/31/2013 2:02 AM (GMT 0)
Good thread. I also think as a bachelor the repetitive foods I consume support a limited set of probiotics and I strive to broaden my diet to support diversity and not allow one to dominate with overgrowth.
Posted 10/31/2013 2:07 AM (GMT 0)

Old Mike said...
Then we have this,from Europe that says probiotics are all BS.om
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8074182/Probiotic-drinks-do-not-aid-health-Europe-says.html

Yes and now.

They make money from the large market share and market phrases directly to them

"It found that all were inadequate to support the company's claim that its products maintained immune defences against the common cold."

I am part of a tiny market and am not looking to cure a cold because I never get 'sick' with my 900 lb gorilla immune system I just want to replace the missing chink in my armor so for me they might very well work and I have always thought VSL#3 was helping or I would not be paying full price for it.
Posted 10/31/2013 2:19 AM (GMT 0)
Is there any kind of test out there that will tell you what strains you are lacking?
Posted 10/31/2013 2:25 AM (GMT 0)
Not to my knowledge, unless maybe you are a medical professional high up in the research area. I sent in a stool sample several months ago to the American Gut Project where eventually I am supposed to get a readout of the dna makeup of everything in the sample. It could wind up being very interesting. Still waiting for the results.
Posted 10/31/2013 3:04 AM (GMT 0)
That does sound interesting. You will have to post results once you get them.
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