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At home FMT question

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Ulcerative Colitis
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Posted 12/11/2013 2:22 PM (GMT 0)
Hi everyone,
I'm in need of some advice for an at home FMT. I'm located in Canada, and up here FMT's have not been approved and are therefore illegal, so I'm unable to mention anything to my doc or they just wont help. I have participated in them before at a study at a hospital in Hamilton, but the study is very flawed. You can only have a transplant done once a week at most, and you only get it done for 6 weeks then you are done (so you're only getting 6 transplants, clearly not enough).

The first 6 transplants I got, I noticed really helped me. I was also on a weak antibiotic for acne at the time (this was about 8 months ago). I ended up getting sick again for other reasons, so I went back in the study in November, this time noticing no results at all. I'm also no longer on any antibiotics.

My sister has agreed to be a donor here at home, and she's willing to donate as much as I need. I hope to do it everyday for a few weeks. I was just wondering, should I do a course of Flagyl before I do the FMT, so I can kill off the old bacteria in hopes that the new bacteria has a better chance? Or is it better to just do the FMT without it?

Any help is greatly appreciated :)
Posted 12/11/2013 2:37 PM (GMT 0)
Churey, glad youve decided to try fmts again. Antibiotic prep is seen by some as necessary whilst others disagree. I am not sure to be honest. Funny that you will be using your sister. I am using my sister too. Ill be trying to follow what she eats as well.
Posted 12/11/2013 2:38 PM (GMT 0)
The way we think, it makes sense to use antibiotics. But it hasn't always been
necessary. I'd take Vancomycin if I was you. Not too sure about Flagyl, but Vanco
is considered the most powerful antibiotic out there. Plus its considered safe in the
sense that it never leaves the GI tract. So its considered safer than alot less powerful
antibiotics. Of course it will obliterate your flora, but in this case, that is the desired
effect.

I'd water fast day before too. Make sure your colon is as empty as possible. That first
infusion is key, in a perfect world your colon would be empty & u can retain long time.

I think it works better if u make solution more watery, if its too think, it will just stay
at the end of the GI tract and make difficult to retain, where if watery (with saline)
it will travel much further and the saline will help absorb it into the intestine.
Posted 12/11/2013 9:08 PM (GMT 0)
MaxMillian; have you started your FMT's yet? Using antibiotics as well? Any success?

tankor; Flagyl is the only option I have, docs wont prescribe anything else since I'm not able to tell them I'm doing this. I just happen to have some Flagyl from the summer. I will be doing a fast the day before as well. How would I go about making saline? I was thinking of just using distilled water. Would that be just as effective?
Posted 12/12/2013 2:37 AM (GMT 0)
We used just distilled water. I think if you are administering without much delay mixing with distilled water alone is enough.

Best wishes....
Posted 12/12/2013 3:50 PM (GMT 0)
Great thank you! Also would you guys recommend a full weeks worth of Flagyl before the FMT? It's pretty strong stuff, I was hoping I could get away with 3 or 4 days of it and it still being successful.
Posted 12/12/2013 4:09 PM (GMT 0)
Here you go.

Would recommend against flagyl since it has a terrible adverse effect profile.
Posted 12/12/2013 8:50 PM (GMT 0)
If flagyl is your only option. It does have some bad side effects.
But guess what.. super powerful antibiotics that destroy your intestinal
flora cause bad effects. I'm certain all of them 100% do. Its the very reason
many of us suffer today. I've seen studies recently that suggest after 5 days
of using them, they cause cellular breakdown & such. I'd suggest not doing a super
long long course.

Even before the water fast, try & do 1 day juice fast. Juice fasting is 0 fiber, and
really helps even more. Ideally I'd advise a 3 day water fast. But its very tough to do
and I'm not sure it would be safe to advise for UC patients, or to any patient without
knowing there complete health history.
Posted 12/12/2013 8:53 PM (GMT 0)
you can buy saline in the drug store. I would recommend it.
Because its salt water, it really gets sucked up into the colon well.
I kinda demo'd this procedure, and had a great infusion with saline making
a pretty watery mix. I think its the best way to spread it around the colon,
therefore making it easier to retain.

Alot of protocol's call for a thick solution. Which I feel is so so so difficult to
retain because it just sits at the end of the GI tract and doesn't spread out
as much as the watery solution.
Posted 12/12/2013 9:13 PM (GMT 0)

tankor said...
If flagyl is your only option. It does have some bad side effects.
But guess what.. super powerful antibiotics that destroy your intestinal
flora cause bad effects. I'm certain all of them 100% do. Its the very reason
many of us suffer today. I've seen studies recently that suggest after 5 days
of using them, they cause cellular breakdown & such. I'd suggest not doing a super
long long course.

Even before the water fast, try & do 1 day juice fast. Juice fasting is 0 fiber, and
really helps even more. Ideally I'd advise a 3 day water fast. But its very tough to do
and I'm not sure it would be safe to advise for UC patients, or to any patient without
knowing there complete health history.

I have to agree. It's blatantly hard to ignore all of this. It's reached the point where antibiotics are no longer effective for what they were originally designated for. The associate director of CDC did a recent interview here. The issue is far more complex than he leads on, however.

From flagyl to amoxicillin, there are emerging publications showing that antibiotics not only decimate the beneficial gut flora so as to encourage the growth of pathogenic bacteria, but they "branch" out the cellular mitochondria, destroying ATP production. When the latter happens, there is no option but to start supplementing with coenzyme q10, NAC and magnesium to mitigate the damage.

The consequences are the following:
1) increased risk of infection from C. Diff
2) weakened integrity of the immune system and susceptibility to future infections - colds, flus, viruses.
3) increased risk of other auto-immune conditions, requiring further treatment and more financial resources.
4) for people with ulcerations such as those seen in UC patients, this means delayed healing. Surgical intervention becomes necessary for these cases.

You're 22. Don't gamble on antibiotics like this unless your life is at stake. You still have the capacity to heal.

Best.
Posted 12/12/2013 9:29 PM (GMT 0)
I don't think it is necessary to take abx. I think it's more important that you are reasonably stable and not flaring. In theory the FMT bacteria should act as an antibiotic provided the donor stool is compatible.

If you do decide to go with abx beforehand I would do FMT at the same time to help reduce the side effects and begin the process of repopulation. 

Posted 12/13/2013 12:37 AM (GMT 0)
hey 360 - KISS !

just start squirtin that lovely ssistercrapt up there and don't get sidetracked by details - if you have a ready and willing prisoner to provide your ammo, just get to it - after 2 weeks you should know whether or not it's working - if it's not, then think about alterations to the formula i.e., abx or some other anti bad stuff -

good luck and enjoy - it's a blast !
Posted 12/13/2013 1:29 AM (GMT 0)
Churey: No i haven't started yet but I will be in a bout a weeks time. I'll be starting a course of Flagyl in a few days as perparation. For me, Flagyl isn't as harsh as say Vancomycin.
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