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Increased proportions of bifidobacterium and the lactobacillus group and loss of butyrate-producing

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Ulcerative Colitis
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Posted 2/1/2014 12:51 PM (GMT 0)
We already know this.

But perhaps why probiotics make me worse, I am shifting the balance even more the wrong way.

Old Mike

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24478468

Posted 2/1/2014 2:25 PM (GMT 0)
According to my American Gut Project report I have no bifidobacterium and 0.7% Lactobacillus.

Whether the quantities noted in the study are too much or too little is still to be resolved. I suspect that the issue is that there is a lack of diversity and less desirable species take up residence where greater diversity would either keep them in check or crowd them out entirely.
Posted 2/1/2014 2:39 PM (GMT 0)
I am sure stool ratios are important,but possibly the real indicator is mucosal samples.
IMPORTANT STATEMENTS:
Bifidobacterium was significantly increased in the biopsies of active UC patients compared to HCs.
Trying to get the complete paper from the author.
Old Mike


Results: The proportion of bacteria was uniformly distributed along the colon regardless of disease state. Bifidobacterium was significantly increased in the biopsies of active UC patients compared to HCs (4.6% versus 2.1%, P=0.001), and the proportion of Bifidobacterium was significantly higher in biopsies than in feces in active CD patients (2.7% versus 2.0%, P=0.012). The Lactobacillus group was significantly increased in biopsies of active CD patients compared to HCs (3.4% versus 2.3%, P=0.036). Compared to HCs, Faecalibacterium prausnitzii (F. prausnitzii) was sharply decreased in both the feces and biopsies of active CD patients (0.3% versus 14.0%, P<0.0001; 0.8% versus 11.4%, P<0.0001) and active UC patients (4.3% versus 14.0%, P=0.001; 2.8% versus 11.4%, P<0.0001).


Conclusions: Bifidobacterium and the Lactobacillus group were increased in active IBD patients, and would be used more cautiously during the active phase of IBD. Butyrate-producing bacteria could be important to gut homeostasis.

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 2/1/2014 7:47:13 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 2/1/2014 2:48 PM (GMT 0)
This is kind of where I am at right now. American Gut showed I have like 98% Firmicutes and almost zero Bacteriodetes when it should be approximately a 40/40 ratio. That's why I started grape seed extract several days ago because it is supposed to decrease Firmicutes and increase Bacteriodetes. I started at the lowest dose on the bottle for the extract and have seen what appears to be definite improvement. Starting today I am doubling the dose and see what happens. So far the results are very encouraging. This might possibly work for others that have a similar problem as me but from what I have seen so far from those posting American Gut results, I am a unique case. Maybe we all are.
Posted 2/3/2014 3:06 AM (GMT 0)
Anyone else find this bacteria stuff complex.. and confusing??? Geeze.

OM - Quick question - Myself having Crohns-Colitis from time to time I used to experience blood, though I haven't seen any for many months now.

When I say blood, I mean I used to look back and see some stool, some white mucus and maybe a streak or blob of bright red blood here and there. Not profuse. And not like the toilet is red or anything. Occasionally there'd be a little on the toilet paper.

With Ulcerative Colitis is there a LOT of blood? Like you look back at times and the bowl is red? I get the impression this is the case for many from what I have read on here - or is it like mine - just a bit of blood here and there...
Posted 2/3/2014 3:30 AM (GMT 0)
Yikes, perhaps this is why my body doesn't like VSL 3. And yes, Mark, UCer's can see turn the toilet bowl red kind of blood. I was terrified the first time that happened to me. I would have BM's of nothing but blood/mucus.
Posted 2/3/2014 3:45 AM (GMT 0)
hi, mindoverbutter here, loyal SCDer 2 years now...

so Bifidus bacteria is ILLEGAL on SCDIET due to the fact that Elaine noticed that although bifidus can be PROBIOTIC, in gut dysbiois (all patients who have IBD) usually have TOO MUCH BIFIDUS... which is bad!

Therefore the only legal probiotics supplements are L Casei, S Therm, L Acid, and S Bou.

If VSL#3 bothers you, there is a chance it is because you don't need anymore bifidum-dum-dum-dum!!!!

Canada Mark, sometimes the bowl looks like I just pored can of spaghettios in it, I'm sure I can vouch for many on here.

Mike, excellent article. This is really cool people are doing American Gut Project, it's fascinating. The inner workings (or not workings) of the gut are most likely the cause of the immune reaction in ulcerative colitis. It is important we study this.

Last 2 cents, most people who do butyrate enema (that I have read) have not had success.
Posted 2/3/2014 10:46 AM (GMT 0)
Yea Mark with UC there can be what looks like a full toilet of blood, I drip blood or shoot blood
quite often.

Just before my sons colectomy he slept by the toilet,was crapping loads of blood, 35 times a day.

With regards to the bifido bacteria, I cant take vsl3,nor some other probiotics, and my fermented pickles

almost destroyed me.  So is also possible that some other strains besides bifido are also a problem.

Some so called probiotics can also be pathogenic, if they get into your blood stream.


OM

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 2/3/2014 4:25:47 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 2/3/2014 3:31 PM (GMT 0)
I, personally, had very little of both Bifido or Lacto bacteria in my gut.


Regarding S. Therm being a legal probiotic, Id go talk to some parents of ASD kids who have realized that any strep strains are issues for their children and cause OCD like behavior. VSL bothers me, not because of the bifidus.
Posted 2/3/2014 3:49 PM (GMT 0)
Anecdotal but I saw considerable improvement after giving up multistrain probiotics and focusing more on fermented foods. Of course, it took a bit of trial and error to find some good fermenting companies, but my gut health is far better. These guys are phenomenal if anyone lives in the DC area and they sell many fermented veggie mixes. "kale-chi" is my favorite - it's a mix of carrots, cabbage and kale. I think Bubbies saurkraut (or any commercial saurkraut) brands don't really do justice to the gut, as laws require them to pasteurize at low temps.

I had a hunch that some of the best gut project results were from those that weren't taking therapeutic grade probiotics. I think many of us disease folks have overgrowths of certain strains that make these counterproductive, though stool cultures are good indicators of this. "Tatertot" Tim, the model citizen, just eats a body ecology style diet with plenty of fermented goodies like kefir, saurkraut, kimchi, etc. He grows his own carrots and eats them in their natural states - no dirt washed off or anything.
Posted 2/3/2014 4:06 PM (GMT 0)
Here is where the problem lies, model citizens arent growing their own carrots. And most people cant afford fancy boutique ferments. I have a jalepeno kraut I get at whole foods that is so good, but really pricy.

I take a few probiotics whose strains I like at very key times. Ive worked for months kill the bad guys, process those toxins, try and thin out my mucus barrier and get anything that was hiding and meds to where they are needed. Then I worked to rebuild the mucus layer and add some good guys. i took alot and continue to take alot of probiotics. One of the ones I take is one of the active guys in kimchi. It makes its own antibiotic and is active against gram negative bacteria (maybe others).
Posted 2/3/2014 4:20 PM (GMT 0)
pk - the place I go to accepts food stamps and the prices are the same as whole food prices. They are one of the organizations that are encouraging the growth of affordable farming foods in any way possible, even if it comes at a loss to the farmers. I understand that this may not be commonplace, but there are resources online to locate one. It's far cheaper for me to do it this way with limited finances I have now - I live very frugally other than food expenditures. I used to get klaire labs probiotics and it helped for a while, but it is very expensive in comparison so I just gave up on it.
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