How Folate triggered my Flareup- it all ties back to pathogens!

@Path your post is incorrect again.

We don't make Folate. Nor is it stored an abundance in us. I think you have a few things mixed up in your works.

We cannot synthesize it from scratch or "de novo" as the fancy folk like to call it. So we obtain it from either dietary sources or intestinal microorgansims. Hence why we have folate deficiency diseases.

It's also why we're unaffected by sulfonomides (sulfa drugs). And bacterial resistance to them has been growing steadily since the 1940's s people (researchers) are trying to understand why. E-coli was used to identify all of the pathways of folate synthesis in bacteria. It's used a lot in the labs because it's easy to culture really - model organism as they call it. There's a lot of bacteria resistant to sulfates now. Plants are actually used as well to try and understand the genetic aspects of these bacterial workarounds to administration of sulfa drugs.

Someone pinged me to answer this. No, we do most certainly make folate. Our gut bacteria synthesizes folate. Our bacteria IS us. Until we make a germ free human who lives a full life it is comedy to separate us from our microbes.



Even though absorption occurs primarily in the duodenum and upper jejunum, the colon represents a major depot of folate and the vitamin produced by the colonic bacteria exceeds dietary intake and affects the folate status of the host. It is produced in large quantities by the colonic microbiota, mainly as monoglutamylated folate, the form that is absorbed at the highest rate [17], intestinal bacteria being one source of this vitamin. Many studies assessed the contribution of intestinal microbiota to the folate intake of animal hosts [17–20], and it has been demonstrated that the folate synthesized by intestinal bacteria can be absorbed and used by the host [18,21–24]. Recently, direct evidence of absorption of folate across the colon has been irrefutably provided
- M. Rossi, 2011 "folate production by probiotic bacteria"

And no,not everyone is uneffected by sulfonomides.

and that's all I got because Im done. Please dont expect any responses when you address me in the future.

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 2/6/2014 4:59:57 PM (GMT-7)

In fact just read what you posted dude... it says so right there...

@ jiggins: im sorry you are reacting to foods like this. Im not sure really, have you tried a PPI?
I have also heard that psyllium may help too.
I would suggest you post your issue in the ostomy/jpouch forum. Or try Jpouch.org.


@ Canada Mark: as a neutral spectator: - PK has been consistent in what she is saying and is always backing hers up with studies.
I can tell you from my training as a dietitian/nutritionist: that folate can be synthesised in our bodies from supplemental folic acid. But yes it cannot be synthesised de novo; but PK did not suggest that, she said it can be synthesised by bacteria in our GIT.
From Wiki (with references clearly marked):
"Sources

Folate naturally occurs in a wide variety of foods, including vegetables (particularly dark green leafy vegetables), fruits and fruit juices, nuts, beans, peas, dairy products, poultry and meat, eggs, seafood, grains, and some beers.[9][69] Spinach, liver, yeast, asparagus, and Brussels sprouts are among the foods with the highest levels of folate.[9]

Folic acid is added to grain products in many countries, and in these countries, fortified products make up a significant source of the population's folic acid intake.[70] Because of the difference in bioavailability between supplemented folic acid and the different forms of folate found in food, the dietary folate equivalent (DFE) system was established. 1 DFE is defined as 1 μg of dietary folate, or 0.6 μg of folic acid supplement. This is reduced to 0.5 μg of folic acid if the supplement is taken on an empty stomach.[71]

Folate naturally found in food is susceptible to high heat and ultraviolet light, and is soluble in water.[72] It is heat-labile in acidic environments and may also be subject to oxidation.[72]

Some meal replacement products do not meet the folate requirements as specified by the RDAs.[73]
" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid

And PK has kindly provided a link to a study (above posts) which talks about folate synthesis by bacteria.

End of story :D

Post Edited (Conquer UC) : 2/6/2014 10:14:22 PM (GMT-7)

As already mentioned, Folate that is synthesized by bacteria in the human colon can be absorbed, and used by the host.
We are however, unable to synthesize it ourselves. We do not have enzymes necessary for synthesizing folic acid. Dietary intake is therefore essential, and absorbed high up in the small intestine. Bacterial synthesis is not sufficient for daily needs.

Bacteria synthesize folate for their own growth. Many are net users, while some others can create an excess (notably bifidobacterium adolescentis.)
It could be suggested that the bacteria we host are so intrinsically part of us, that 'we' do synthesize it 'ourselves'. However, bacteria are not normally considered as human cells.
(Since there are more bacterial cells within us than there are human cells, it may be more appropriate to suggest that we are bacteria, and not they us!)

--
Some sulphonamides have anti-bacterial characteristics (and trimethoprin boosts the effect of these). These sulphonamides interfere with an enzyme necessary for bacterial folate synthesis. They can therefore be used as antibacterials, without affecting human cells (which do not use this enzyme.)
No interaction between the human immune system and the sulfonamide functional group has been demonstrated. However, there can be sensitivity reactions to the products formed as the drug is utilized. Some people will therefore not be able to tolerate these compounds.

--
The roles and mechanisms of DNA methylation, and demethylation, are extremely intricate and extremely complex.
Low folate status can lead to both hypo- and hyper-methylation, resulting in misregulation of this complex system. And, DNA methylation varies between the sexes, also changing during aging.
Folate, Vitamin B6, B2, and B12, are among those nutrients required to maintain 1-carbon flow. This ensures that important reactions such as normal homocysteine remethylation, SAM formation, and DNA methylation, take place.

“1-carbon” is a term used to refer to compounds that contain one carbon atom. These are carbon dioxide, methanoic acid, methanal, methanol, and methane (from the most oxidised state to the most reduced.)
The 1-carbon pathway, and DNA methylation, functions under very tight regulatory controls.

Under normal dietary conditions, absorbed folate is metabolized to 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (5-MTHF) in the intestine and/or liver. The relationship between folate status and DNA methylation (which can affect gene expression) needs much further exploration, and is an emerging field of study. (It is important because during DNA replication, folate depletion, and other nutrient imbalances can have destabilizing consequences.)

--
The reason I have droned on, and likely bored everyone with this, is because I believe these systems are far too complex for any piece-meal manipulation.
The outcome of supplementing with various nutrients can vary tremendously due to genetic variants, dietary and lifestyle choices, environmental exposures, and of course disease status.
I truly admire and respect those who experiment on themselves, but shudder at the thought of others trying to emulate someone else's individual journey.

Take care.

This is interesting. I have not been doing well recently and have started taking methylated B12 and folate plus P5P once a week since finding out about homoz MTHFR. I have no idea if these might be contributing to the flare as I am also generally exhausted with too much on at the moment. My body certainly seems to have become dependent on mesalazine over the past few years, every time I cut the dose I start to bleed - and the high dose makes me tired and brain fogged and seems to worsen gastritis.

I had to give up my standard B complex which had high dose B12 in it. I was getting dizzy and anxiety rushes and finally traced it to that. Since stopping I'm getting more outbreaks of cold sores etc :-(

Feel darned if I do, darned if I don't with this folate stuff.

Conquer UC - not sure if you are around, I started another thread yesterday because I couldn't find this one as wanted to add to it but found it now.

I started another thread to post about some important research on folate triggering inflammation so re-posting the link here to keep it all together

From this thread:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3035562
I have found the abstract of what looks like a really interesting research report
"Effect of multivitamins on plasma homocysteine in patients with the 5,10 methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase C677T homozygous state"

concluding that for this mutation
it is unnecessary to adminster high doses of folate to reduce plasma Hcy levels, and administering high doses of folate may cause pro-inflammatory and pro-proliferative effects

www.spandidos-publications.com/mmr/8/2/609/abstract

Thank you jiggins. It's great to read that it is helpful for others. I am only able to really spend time on this at the moment because of my current flare and being on Pred which means I cannot be at work due to the fact I go manic on Pred. I am trying to put this energy and time to good use though by doing as much as I can to understand the science of it all. I worry that I might be flooding the forum a bit at the moment.

One thing I am sure of is that a little knowledge can be dangerous, hence myself rushing in with the supplements before I had a better understanding.

Post Edited (London Lurker) : 4/1/2014 1:48:55 PM (GMT-6)