My dummest farfetched UC theory yet.

Yes- Remove MUC2 (the mucin)

"The reason for the lack of an inner mucus layer is that the polymeric Muc2 mucin provides the three dimensional structure required for organization of the mucus layer. In the absence of Muc2 mucin, the bacteria come in direct contact with the epithelial cells and bacteria are found deep in the crypts and also observed inside epithelial cells."

"The mice lacking the Muc2 mucin develop loose stools, diarrhea containing blood and fail to thrive."

Sound familiar? ;)

/sites.google.com/site/mucusbarrier/the-mucus-layers

As far as endotoxin is concerned - here is VERY long paper on MAP. It addresses a lot of the issues, but one thing it addresses (page 162 and earlier) is the effect of secondary stimulation to bacterial LPS (endotoxin).

Aside from MAP it also touches on Viral effects on the mucus barrier.

So perhaps something - A chronic MAP infection or a type of Virus perhaps combined with the wrong bacteria could change the response the body has to bacterial endotoxins and as well mucus production and set up the stage for something like UC to take place.

lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2322&context=etd

I believe this is what Professor Herman-Taylor was driving at when he says Ulcerative Colitis might be a "true" immune condition, but a chronic MAP infection makes things worse - just like it does in DDS colitis models. Same with some Viruses.

Here OM - you will find this interesting: Stumbled on it for another post a short bit ago:

Confocal Endomicroscopy Reveals Food-Associated Changes in the Intestinal Mucosa of Patients with Irritable Bowel Syndrome: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25083606

IBS - but I'll gosh darn guarantee ya the results would be more pronounced in IBD if they duplicated this study....

EDIT: I'd really like to read the full version of this. Specially in light of the one you dug up about food antigens and crohns recently.

Mark That is interesting,I guess what they mean by food antigens are food proteins.

Tunnel: Well we know that the mucus modulates the bacteria and the bacteria intern modulates the mucus, and

also applies to the immune system.  So that may be one way that we loose tolerance to commensal bacteria, if that

is actually a cause of IBD. I wonder if they have taken WT mice killed off all the bacteria and checked the mucus thickness, or did I just read that somewhere,cant remember.

Old Mike

OM: That would be interesting to see as well.

I remember that recent IgA coating study, they introduced the IgA+ bacteria to germ-free mice and nothing happened. One could guess that the colitis isn't caused just by bad bacteria.

BUT I think the key here is that much of the host's immune system develops ALONGSIDE the bacteria. So you grow up with a certain microbiome and that microbiome refines your immune system and stimulates some areas while suppressing other areas. You add enough damage to the microbiome over time (repeated use of antibiotics, infections, chemicals, diet, weight loss efforts) and your immune system is no longer being suppressed in the right areas allowing the immune response to proliferate.

Pretty good paper on how gut bacteria directly influence the immune system: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1931312812003162

In my personal case, since 2011, I was no-carb dieting for 6 months, reintroduced carbs but severely calorie restricted for the next year, took 2-3 courses of antibiotics for other reasons, had a severe gut infection for about 3-4 weeks, given antibiotics during kidney surgery, and then a course of antibiotics which ultimately gave me the UC this February.

IBD incidence is growing slowly but relative to the entire population there are only about 0.5% of us (CD and UC combined), and I think it's because it may take a LOT to sufficiently disturb the microbiome to the point of IBD. Perhaps the immune system runs amok, breaks down the mucus barrier, and allows commensals contact with the epithelial layer which worsens the UC. It seems that there has to be more than just the mucus barrier breaking down, since DSS colitis models often heal with the removal of DSS, even when the microbiome is bad.

I think the key here is that the microbiome that you grew up and developed with that directly affects how your immune system is developed is killed off in the areas that modulate the immune system and just allow it to mount a response.

But there's no need to take my amateurish arm-waving all too seriously. I'm hung up on why antibiotics can initiate UC and this seems to answer more questions for me in addition to damaging the mucus layer. It's cool that we're just starting to discover all these things but frustrating how slow research moves because I wanna know NOW! haha.

Gary: That seems like an interesting idea, one that can be directly tested in a study.

Sorry to hear that about your son OM, but at least he doesn't have to deal with the disease anymore.

I also believe there may be different subsets of UC so some other factors may be important for other people. For example, I think there might be something different going on for those who have UC that runs in families. Meanwhile, I am the only one in my entire family that anyone knows of that has UC.

Who knows.

How has your thinking about the disease evolved since you started researching, OM?

That's pretty amazing OM, to be researching for that long. I find that pursuit for knowledge very admirable.

So do you think the research itself has turned away from thinking it is purely autoimmune? What direction do you think research is going in and how close do you think they could be to finding a cause for UC and IBD in general? I heard from another person the other day that there are a lot of other AI diseases where the cause isn't known, is that true?

"So within 40 minutes of exposure of Germ Free mice to bacterial exotoxin they spontaneously develop a firm inner layer of mucus that is exactly the same as conventional mice.

This to me, shows one of the main problems in Ulcerative-Coltis - this response isn't working. Something is effecting this ability to generate a protective firm inner mucus layer - or any mucus at all really. To me I have always thought of "infection" versus this process just shutting off one day."

I can confirm that this is not working properly with me. I was as close to remission as I have been in the past decade by taking 75 mg of Imuran, the greek Oil of Oregano, and enjoying lots of sun. It lasted about a month and was halted in its tracks by my consumption of white potatoes. I didn't eat that many of them but over a few weeks time it was enough to make me start hitting the pepto and going back to my Seacure and Sodium Butyrate. Looking at my food diary the last bad flare was in January after eating potato salad.

My symptoms now are what they have been since I was dx'd back in 2001, 10 plus times a day, stomach gurgling, yellow no form stool. Like you guys said the million dollar question is why isn't it healing after the offensive item has been removed.

OM to note that even when I was really close to remission I would have the room clearing farts just like your son. I remember two months before being dx with UC I would have the same farts.

Hi Dan,

Like you I achieved the best success with 100mg Imuran (i used to be 150mg), Oregano Oil and lot's of good old sunshine. Best in 12 years.

What I have learned through trial and error is that if I eat say apples, eggs, chicken and a few other basic items for a few days I can have perfect poop, once a day and no issues. IF I add say medium or rare steak, certain protein powders or tomatoes and such - even just one of these items, I will get gas, sometimes sulfur smelling farts and if I try to much I will see looser stool and even bits of mucus. I have tried a few days on both and even just adding one item at a time and every time it yields these results. Reverting back to known "safe" foods for a few days yields perfect poop.

So this tells me that for sure, 1,000% that the remaining problem is a food intolerance issue to certain specific items and that there are many of us on the board here that probably have the same issue keeping us from full remission.

For a long time I thought it was all bacterial related and such - but what I have realized very recently is that the sulfur farts, loose stool and even inflammation is actually a food antigen issue that needs to be dealt with.

This was the biggest revelation I have had in some time... When I go to my GI next I am going to discuss this in detail with him. I feel it's pretty important for all of us.

OM: www.livinghealthy360.com/index.php/potatoes-aggravate-inflammatory-bowel-disease-63088/

CM: I remember reading about immune cells having memory and having a 2 year life, dont hold me to that exactly but my point is if your gut is open and your immune system sees food particles it isn't suppose to I would imagine that even when your gut heals your immune system will still trigger an reaction when it sees those foods it reacted to. I think I remember OM talking about this and then just doing an immune system reboot with radiation or something like that.