Cell stress inflames the gut: New insights into chronic bowel inflammation

Canada Mark said...
It's cool, I'll have it Sunday at some point anyway. I was just curios on the samples most likely being not from active UC. It's pretty simple to figure out without looking/reading to be honest after thinking about it today.

I'm quite sure the title means what I said, it's not what they "thought" it's what actually occurs; Inverse Regulation.

I was only interested in this from a totally different perspective anyway - DDS and possible bacterial implications in regards to another topic altogether and implications on increased cancer risk in UC.

PS - it's the long weekend for you guys I think! Or Fourth of July weekend so don't spend it reading and go enjoy the festivities and sunshine and such... Hopefully you're not to ill for that.

And good luck with the WOO thing! Hopefully it helps but I really don't know anyone with straight UC that it has... Which sucks. It's mostly pancolitis. Frustrating.

1) "Inverse Regulation" is by definition when one thing increases while the other one decreases... It has nothing to do with what people think/thought... If it were as you suggest, they would have said something along the lines of "contrary to what was previously assumed/thought".

2) Im from Toronto so no 4th of July for me : p

3) I have pancolitis so fingers crossed : p Its strange that youve made that observation, since the only difference between pancolitis and the other forms is the extent of bowel involvement. Ill look into that a bit!

From part of the conclusion in the above paper.
You can take this to the bank,IMO.
What I have been saying for the past two weeks,and prior.
Normal immune response,to bacteria that cannot be cleared.

Why cant they be cleared,by the immune system,my guess,constant re-infection or continuous infection,by the

zillions of bacteria that are trying to get to the mucosa.

Also IMO,they can go down every immune and biochemical pathway they can find,might result on some

new drug,but.

They need to concentrate on what is going on in the mucus.

Old Mike

As long as the mucus barrier function is impaired, the inflammatory process cannot

successfully clear bacteria from the mucosal surface and the immunsuppressive therapy

remains the main therapeutic option

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 7/5/2014 9:40:43 AM (GMT-6)

@maurader

No - again, URP (Unfolded protein response) regulates chop - this results in apoptosis under stress. In chronic inflammation the presence of chop which is still regulated by UPR DOES NOT result in apoptosis, but in fact results in delayed healing. This means that the "regulation" of chop in chronic inflammation is an opposite/inverse relationship.

And this inverse regulation is "unexpected" or was not known until they clarified this in their study.

This is what they mean and the study is about. I promise you.

EDIT: It's far easier to agree to disagree! haha. You know you're close to me. Was just in TO the other day. about 40 min for me downtown. I though you were from the states for some reason.

--------------------------------------------------

@gary/OM

/sites.google.com/site/mucusbarrier/home

Also there's quite a bit on this topic. A quick note: in regards to Dr. Swidsinski, in their latest update they found that b.fragilis was the main bacteria isolated from colonic biopsies and that b.fragilis was the sole bacteria isolated in crypts and infiltrating cells. There could be two reasons for this - 1) they are causing the disease (least likely I think personally) 2) They thrive, multiply and grow biofilms because they feed of the organic sulfur in mucus.

I'm sure there's many other takes as well.

The thing is antibiotics that target these bacteria do not result in the reversal/cure of IBD. Unless there is perhaps some sort of antibiotic resistance - or the numbers are just to high and a two to 4 week long course just doesn't put a dint in them.


I don't know about anyone else but I just want to log on here one day and read "take this 3x daily for a week and voila - back to a normal life" ha. Dare to dream.

PS - the site linked above is mine, I have a ton to upload so perhaps next week I'll refresh it with lot's of new information.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 7/5/2014 12:18:47 PM (GMT-6)

garylouisville said...
I don't want this to sound the wrong way because you have a lot of knowledge and are right about many things, but, sometimes you come off as being arrogant in thinking that your knowledge is so great that you can actually save the world if everyone would just listen and take your advice. There are a lot of people that know a lot about UC, including many medical professionals, but I have yet to see anyone who has the answer to UC.

Im not arrogant. Im absolutely convinced that every single person here can be healed. And when you are convinced that people are stuck suffering due to bad information it's hard not to be passionate.

I have a pretty good track record by email.. a better one then most of your Gastros ;) But that has nothing to do with me. It has to do with having access to resources most people dont. From practitioners to educational materials. Because of the luck of my job and the resources available to me. I didnt start out with all these resources. But over life Ive been blessed to have found them or I would never be well. I was sick so long. Some people here actually have seen my facebook. They can look at my history because I am a prolific poster and picture uploader ;) they see my friends posts.. they know the reality of my story. Some here have emailed me one on one and I hope that they all know my heart and my story. I havent been able to provide the information to all of them that they need in the space that they are at, but I do believe that Ive been blessed to help several people here... many who I have never even asked their Healing well screen name that are really truly on their way toward wellness. I also have been completely unable to help others.. but I do believe that they can be healed still.. we just dont have enough puzzle pieces yet to put it all together.

I dont know your entire story Gary.. but when youve been sick since you were 5.. and had as many surgeries and doctors visits as I have.. and you find out the whole paradigm of doing medicine is off and worse is that there are people that know it.. once you start unbreaking pieces of information you find that you are not unique you dont know anything special.. but it also makes you even more frustrated because someone knew this info and you went to dozens and dozens of doctors and really really tried to get well.. but never heard any of it....

So, then you want other people to have that info that if you had sooner it wouldnt have taken so much of your life to heal.

I am better now and Im not going to waste much time crying over the past. But I so wish I could have been better sooner. I missed so much that I can never get back. I would have loved to be a doctor but I settled for midwifery because I knew there was no way I could get through med school. I had 2 surgeries in my first 2 years of college.... I was physically here but I missed the whole first year of my last child's life basically.. I can never get that back.

So my heart honestly isnt arrogant. It wants so many of the people here who I have read their story for 2 years now to get well. So when I come back after a month and here we are chasing the same trees it just makes me sad. Also, when someone has the audacity to call you names you kinda get no holds barred on what you think of their science interpretation in return. CM said the things he did about me and that was okay. so I think it's only fair I get to give my interpretation of him in threads like this after his dismissive statement to me a couple times for posterity. A meal can set him back so he will be here for awhile, spewing his drivel.. while I cant/ wont be. Every time I pop back in I more and more of what is the point.

Im sorry you read it as arrogance. Again, I assure you.. it's nothing about my own skill or intelligence. I feel like alot of people here are my combat mates and I made it out of the battle but they didnt. It's akin to no man left behind theology. I truly have developed an affinity for many of you over time.

So here goes:

NCOT
Somedude
OM
soystud
ima
thoreau
joanna
gary
IAS
(and of course those of you I already talk to off of here!))

I seem to have less patience every time I come back and that accomplishes nothing.. but still yes gary.. it probably is a bit unhealthy that I really do care so much about people Ive never even met and often have no idea of how much their story has caught me personally. They have no idea Ive literally prayed for them and cried with them when I read their posts.

Im making my email public again for a bit. Copy it down if you would like. Ive read all of your stories and regardless, I hope the best for each and every one of you and Im rooting for your health. If you ever want any additional options and healing and would like to brainstorm then feel free to contact me.

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 7/6/2014 9:57:01 AM (GMT-6)

Hey Path - Thanks <3 >_> :p

I really felt for you while I was reading your post. I was lucky to be physically healthy until the age of 25 (although I did have chronic constipation as a child, which was a misery...). I started my journey with Crohn's in complete naiviety and ignorance. 14 years later, I am cynical, traumatised, and battle-scarred. Being ill is traumatic; the invasive tests, the drugs which screw with your mind and your body, the pain, the hospital stays, and so on. You can add to that the impersonal and disorientating medical bureaucracy, which is a nightmare to deal with - especially as an inpatient.

All in all, if I had my time over again with the full knowledge that I have today, I'd probably try your way, PK. My main reservation would be that I have Crohn's and you're probably more used to treating UC folks. However, I am convinced that because my disease started off so mildly, it needn't have ended with a colectomy. My biggest mistake was ignoring it for the first five years, and giving it time to become entrenched (couldn't tolerate the 5-ASAs, so I wasn't even on those). Reckon if I'd gone at my disease hard and heavy in those first 5 years, I could probably have got it under control. Ah well, no use crying over spilt milk, even though that's all I ever do.... :-/

@CM - As far as I know, PK doesn't charge for her help. I'm as dubious about shysters and quacks as anyone can be, but when you fail all the meds which are meant to help you, what else is there left to try, other than alternative treatments and surgery? When you took amino acids for a while, a few other people jumped on the bandwagon with you. They were horribly expensive too, from what I remember - way beyond my price range. Obviously you didn't twist anyone arm's to take the amino acids, but they did so anyway.

Hi,

I just met Dr. Swidsinski recently. We discussed your questions but have not had enough time to go into details. He told me you should send all your questions by mail: [email protected]

It could take a while till he answers, but from my experience it works pretty well. Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to help patients outside of Europe. I am not sure if you know his website and methods: http://www.charite.de/arbmkl/patienten/patienten4darm.htm

As you would need to receive his tools and send your probes back, UPS does not deliver this sort of materials ;-) From his experience it does not work and is very expensive. However, he told me that all his UC patients are at remission and pretty well. For MC patients it is more difficult and about 50% are fine. He is probably unmatched from a scientific perspective.

If you have any questions please feel free and good luck!

All the best,
GermanOne

Thank you so much for posting GermanOne. I wasn't aware that Dr Swindinski sees patients as well as doing research. Would you be able to say more about what methods he uses?

Hi GermanOne,

Because the site is in German and they way it is made it does't translate well using Google. Some of the studies do but they have been read or posted on here. Most of Swidinski's work is based around Biofilm formation in UC, Crohn's, IBS, Vaginal Infections etc etc

I do have a question:

1) It looks like they offer faecal core sampling as a means of diagnosing a bacterial biofilm or dysbyosis and distinguishing between Crohn's & Colitis based on the presence of leukocytes in the sample. Is this correct? This being a little different than your average feacal sample test.

2) Is there a specific treatment protocol? Like say antibiotics? Or well... I think many are curious if standard meds would be used or if the treatment is based around antibiotics or other.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 11/10/2014 7:04:56 AM (GMT-7)

Hi Germanone, my questions are similar to those of Canada Mark....

Sampling - do they test only stool or do biopsy as well?

Treatment - as Mark asked -what methods are used to rebalance? Antibiotics? FMT? Traditional IBD medications?

Thank you.

GermanOne:

In this paper from his main web page it seems to imply FT, unless I am reading the translation wrong.

http://www.charite.de/arbmkl/patienten/cedwien.pdf

Translation direct from google.

To putative deficits fix, we suggest chair transplants from healthy to sick.

second paragraph.

I can even read, stuhltransplantationen.

Old Mike

You might get more idea of what he is doing here, he is probably way ahead of many.

Old Mike

This is a gotta read Swidsinski paper never saw it before.

Lots of profound info here.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ibd.20003/pdf

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 11/10/2014 6:36:03 PM (GMT-7)

@Oldmike, your German (or Google) is quite good ;-)

Um vermeintliche Defizite zu beheben, empfiehlt man Stuhltransplantationen von Gesunden zu Kranken. Die Empfehlung ähnelt dem Vorschlag, sinkende Kernspaltprodukte im gestörten ***ushima Reaktor mit intakten Brennelementen aufzufrischen. Gibt es gute und schlechte Bakterien im Darm? Gibt es gute oder schlechte Isotope im Atomkraftwerk? Solange Reaktoren richtig arbeiten, sind Inhalte nützlich. Doch wenn sie austreten? Die Dickdarmbakterien an sich sind weder gut noch böse. Sie sind Indikatoren für den Zustand des Darmbioreaktors.

However, this paragraph basically states that you should not go for a FMT. He compares our colons with e.g. ***ushima nuclear reactor. A FMT would be similar to mix low radiated nuclear fuel rods with new ones in a destroyed nuclear plant - which is a mess :) It is not about the intestine microbes, it is about your reactor (colon). Microbes indicate if everything works fine, but they can't repair your reactor (colon).

I told you - whenever I mentioned FMT to Swidsinski his mood turned to a thunderstorm like state. He even met the guy - Borody? - from Australia and wasn't convinced. Personally, I would agree with your hypothesis about Mesalazin to "quiet" the biofilm. That is the reason why he gives it in such a high dosis and check regularly if your microbes get normal. If you have leucos you additionally take Budenofalk as long as it takes. Summarizing, it is not about your microbinome but more about microbes breaching into your mucosa.