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Cloves/Eugenol thickens inner mucus

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Posted 4/11/2015 11:23 AM (GMT 0)
At least in mice.

Don't over do, can be liver toxic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenol

This is a great study the mice were given low dose in drinking water 13ugm/ml.

I am always looking to increase the mucus barrier thickness and function.

Also funny cannot find one eugenol colitis study/mice dss colitis nothing.

Old Mike

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4365398/


dam the work was done in 07.

http://circle.ubc.ca/handle/2429/46451


the above leads us again to NLRP6

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867414000786

Of course higher concentration of oils tend to kill

http://mic.sgmjournals.org/content/158/Pt_11/2870.long

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/11/2015 9:35:16 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/11/2015 11:55 AM (GMT 0)
What if something that our body's immune system is attacking has taken over the mucus layer and we thicken it further?
Posted 4/11/2015 12:08 PM (GMT 0)
Well my current thinking is that our problem from the get go is the mucus barrier has been penetrated, by bacteria. Anything we can do to exclude the bacteria from contact with the mucosa should help.
Old Mike
Posted 4/11/2015 7:46 PM (GMT 0)
Is that related to the lecithine study that has been performed in Germany?
(some people report good results with lecithine)
Posted 4/11/2015 8:22 PM (GMT 0)
Nothing to do with lecithin.
Old Mike
Posted 4/11/2015 10:13 PM (GMT 0)
I tried sucking on raw cloves daily for a while, just made things worse for me.
Posted 4/12/2015 12:34 PM (GMT 0)
I am trying one dried clove a day. Basically the lowest does I can do.
If it works the same way in humans, might have something.
There is something like 14% give or take eugenol in cloves, need to find out how much
one clove weighs,might need to cut the does to even 1/2 a clove.
Difficult to figure out how much eugenol the mice actually ate, since they put the eugenol in
drinking water,so it was a pretty low dose.
OM

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/12/2015 8:13:29 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/12/2015 1:31 PM (GMT 0)
Maybe this is why Indians have less UC since they use cloves (and other spices like turmeric) in cooking much more than western countries. I use garam masala to make curry once a week and cloves are in that along with other good spices. Back before refrigeration these spices probably killed bacteria on non-fresh meat.

You can also make clove tea. For me a little clove goes a looong way.
Posted 4/12/2015 1:32 PM (GMT 0)
I told the last GI that resistant starch is shown to thicken the mucus layer and her response was that thickening is the disease response, an indication of active disease. I thought about that and each time I have a CT scan a thickened mucus layer is indeed reported to me. Confusing.
Posted 4/12/2015 2:01 PM (GMT 0)
Well yea, it is a protective response, if you can get it, ulcerations are usually denuded of mucus.
In the case with cloves what they mean by thickening is the width of the inner mucus layer, as
opposed to increased viscosity. The inner mucus layer in normal people should be impenetrable
to bacteria. In our case it is penetrated,by bacteria getting to the mucosa tissue.

The only thing protecting your colon from the millions/billions of bacteria that are trying to get to your

tissue is, the mucus barrier.  The barrier of course is not just mucus,but also the innate immune system,

of which the mucus is part of.  Mucosal immune system.
So it seems we want, the thickest in width,and high viscosity mucus inner layer.
Crohns on the other hand has thick mucus, does not expand out of the crypts, possibly due
to a bicarbonate transport problem in the crypts.  If the mucus does not expand the bacteria are

not flushed from the crypts.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/12/2015 8:12:39 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/13/2015 3:58 AM (GMT 0)
OM, have you looked into how bacteria might be flushed from the mucus layer if they are to get inside? How does the body work to get rid of that bacteria?

Also, I was pondering about this today... what if reduced bacterial diversity/beneficial strains lead to a weaker mucus layer (this effect seen in mice) and bacteria were able to penetrate the inner layer, but ALSO the loss of immunomodulatory bacteria led to a really inappropriate response to bacterial penetration of the inner layer?

Essentially, a weak microbiome creates a weak mucus layer and a tendency for the immune system to overreact. Since most commensal bacteria are highly resistant to inflammation, this creates a vicious cycle of chronic inflammation?
Posted 4/13/2015 9:43 AM (GMT 0)
Tunnel: All kinds of mechansims, D, extra mucus production, leukocytes, peptides, and the
whole immune cascade. But as you can see in our case, protection has failed.

Not sure there is an inappropriate response to bacterial penetration.

Yes the bacteria modulates the mucus, and the mucus modulates the bacteria.
A question might be if you can clear the bacteria from the mucosa, will the immune system
calm down.
OM
Posted 4/13/2015 6:55 PM (GMT 0)

Old Mike said...
A question might be if you can clear the bacteria from the mucosa, will the immune system
calm down.
OM

Isn't that the reason why antibiotics reduce the inflammation? By reducing gut bacteria population; causing the immune system to calm down a little?

Post Edited (xy123) : 4/13/2015 1:03:49 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/13/2015 8:25 PM (GMT 0)
Well many antibiotics have anti-inflammatory properties.
The other problem is that in many cases/perhaps all the antibiotic will not eradicate the biofilm.
So the bacteria are still in contact with the mucosa and the immune system.
The biofilm may be suppressed, that may lead to some calming down of the immune system.
Wholesale wipe out of the stool bacteria may also calm down the immune system.
But the what you have done is also reduced colonization resistance, and other bacteria
then can take hold.
In general they have not had good success with antibiotic treatment for UC.
Although some have achieved remission.
Swidsinski indicates the biofilm is secondary to an impaired mucus barrier.
I say that the biofilm also contributes to chronicity.
OM

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/13/2015 2:40:13 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/13/2015 9:25 PM (GMT 0)

Old Mike said...
Tunnel: All kinds of mechansims, D, extra mucus production, leukocytes, peptides, and the
whole immune cascade. But as you can see in our case, protection has failed.

Not sure there is an inappropriate response to bacterial penetration.

Yes the bacteria modulates the mucus, and the mucus modulates the bacteria.
A question might be if you can clear the bacteria from the mucosa, will the immune system
calm down.
OM


True, who knows, we could be normal people having a normal immune response to bacteria that aren't where they should be.

Vitamin A+D contributes to antimicrobial peptides in the gut, wonder if that plays a part in the geographical gradient of IBD prevalence.

I'm starting to think more and more that UC is an unfortunate cycle of a weak inner mucus layer being penetrated by gut bacteria, the immune system responding to that w/ inflammation, but so many commensal bacteria are very highly resistant to inflammation. So you have a cycle of the mucus barrier being destroyed/weakend by inflammation which contributes to inflammation resistant commensals continually penetrating the inner layer.

medicalxpress.com/news/2015-01-harmony-friendly-gut-bacteria.html

So we are kept in this new equilibrium state of chronic inflammation.
Posted 4/13/2015 11:15 PM (GMT 0)
Tunnel:
That's an interesting study.
Seems like you are on the right track. But it is probably just not the inner mucus barrier,but it could be.

The amazing this is that we have so much defense, yet we get UC, something has gone very wrong.
The stool composition and construction layers are also not correct, as Swidsinski calls it
the bioreactor.

I am still on one clove a day,If I see nothing in a week will go to two.


Here is my stuff from last week on antimicrobial peptides,they should go after biofilm.

cathelicidin ll-37

Looks like from the below info that a 3 pronged approach has a chance.

Vitamin D,cucurmin,and  butyrate.

Old Mike

here is a cached version

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vuDVYDeBiq8J:www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/3/4/509/pdf+&cd=23&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

looks like oral vitamin D can upregulate at least in the skin cathelicidin

seems that as we know there is a IBD vitamin D connection

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2659525/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathelicidin

wow now I find that butyrate also induces,is there a connection here with biofilms and our loss

of butyrate producing bacteria

http://www.jleukbio.org/content/92/4/735.full


well it is upregulated in UC but not crohns, is it upregulated enough

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16702850


and now I find curcumin is able to induce this article also says that cysteine proteases cleave it

and we know that protease inhibitors can induce remission

http://www.formatex.info/microbiology4/vol3/1489-1498.pdf


seems that nothing is all good, they have a bladder inflammation model using ll-37

http://file.scirp.org/Html/1-7300613_35612.htm


high salt concentration and PC inhibit, yes PC at least bacterial PC

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000527360600126X


dose many things and all perhaps not good

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3836506/


mycobacteria killing

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21790937


induction by curcumin not vdr associated

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485441/


butyrate crohns trial just some info

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2036.2005.02639.x/pdf<!-- Edit -->

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/8/2015 2:51:18 PM (GMT-6)


Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/13/2015 5:29:11 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/13/2015 11:16 PM (GMT 0)
Seems like the experts should have nailed down a general outline of a theory along these lines already, even if it lacked specifics. So far the best they can do is shrug their shoulders, throw their arms up in the air, and say "don't really know what causes IBD".
Posted 4/14/2015 1:40 AM (GMT 0)
Gary, it's because they do not know what causes IBD, nor does anyone else.
What is being discussed here are the upstream processes that follow from an unknown cause. These processes are well known to all experts, though they appear novel to those who are not familiar with the cascade of events that depict IBD.
Posted 4/14/2015 6:24 AM (GMT 0)
It's true, any wacky theories I may have should not be considered true, but it is interesting to try and put the pieces together. From what I've read, the things being discussed aren't particularly far off from what experts talk about, so it's not like any of this is completely off base. I don't think I have any of the answers but at the very least all this reading and thinking is helpful to my potential career. *shrugs*
Posted 4/14/2015 9:52 AM (GMT 0)
I grow weary of the "experts", too many colons lost everyday, including my son.
OM

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/14/2015 10:12:58 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/16/2015 5:45 AM (GMT 0)
I hate to see anyone endure IBD... but I feel that if we had more researchers that actually had IBD things might be very different.
Posted 4/19/2018 4:32 AM (GMT 0)
When I started the WOO/Imuran thing, for quite some time I was filling empty gel caps with a combo of a few drops each of WOO/Cinnamon Oil and Clove Oil. From memory I dropped the Cinnamon because it gave me some sort of 'gut burn'. But I know I continued with Clove Oil for a while. Still take it from time to time though. I'm not 100% sure why I stoped other than putting it in gel caps was a bit of a pain. I have also taken occasionally when I run out of WOO and am waiting for more.

Can't say if it helped or not though as I took a lot of different things.

And a mixture of honey, WOO and Clove Oil closed off a stubborn fistula opening very fast when applied daily. Closed within a few days. Was awkward as heck though to apply and cover with a bandaid in the area. I took pictures of it daily because I was curious if it would work.
Posted 4/19/2018 6:12 AM (GMT 0)
I'm taking Oregon's Wild Harvest Cloves from Whole Foods and it's absolutely working. Took the maximum daily amount of 3 per day the evening I bought them and noticed an immediate improvement the following morning. After taking them for one week, things have gone from out of control, about to quit my job to 5-10 bms per day, and several hours in between quite often. Most bms are pretty good for me and a few have been almost normal. Normal length for the first time in several years, ribbon or tape like but expanding. TMI I know, but who gives a crap (pun intended). I am in no way affiliated with Oregon's Wild Harvest or Whole Foods. Looked for but could not find an ingestible clove bud oil. I like how it says to take no more than 3 capsules per day. Don't have to worry about taking too many or poisoning myself with OTC Clove Bud Oil fragrance! Cheers!

Post Edited (Judson) : 4/19/2018 12:16:29 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/20/2018 2:43 AM (GMT 0)
I am really happy another thread ended up leading me here.
The science seems pretty solid especially as the changes start with biome rebalancing and are synergetic to multiple factors of our issues. I still have questions I need to dig the answers for but I feel like this will fit well in my plans.
Huge thanks to the original poster for bringing us the info!!
Posted 4/20/2018 6:57 AM (GMT 0)
Organic Clove Bud powdered capsules, 3 per day are totally saving my ass.

Post Edited (Judson) : 4/20/2018 2:20:25 AM (GMT-6)

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