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Posted 4/23/2015 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you OM

Going to have to have a read through all of this. Bit confused about taurine though, didn't it show up as a "baddie" recently?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22722865
"Dietary-fat-induced taurocholic acid promotes pathobiont expansion and colitis in Il10-/- mice"
Posted 4/23/2015 9:02 PM (GMT 0)
Yea that is from the milk fat study,quite familiar with it, I have course have a big thread on it.
Anyhow, we have taurine conjugated bile, the milk fat seems to make more.
Not my concern at this time, but how to make RIT/tauhalides work to are advantage.
OM

Almost forgot it does work in humans.

Periodontal disease might even be something like UC, of the gums, but the antigenic load perhaps lower.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4052649/


good run down of what is going on in the gums,seems that much of the same goes on with UC in the colon

http://medipure.net/HOCLPeriodontitis.pdf


as an aside immune tolerance to self proteins can be broken by chlorination with HOCl.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15140055


bromine UK diet

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2001/em/b105695f#!divAbstract


mice dss/ala complete study

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/241693276_Role_of_-lipoic_acid_in_dextran_sulfate_sodium-induced_ulcerative_colitis_in_mice_Studies_on_inflammation_oxidative_stress_DNA_damage_and_fibrosis

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/27/2015 10:49:09 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2015 1:48 PM (GMT 0)
Very long time lurker here.  This thread has finally prompted me to join and post on this thread.  I am torn between thinking this theory makes tons of sense and assuming it's been debunked quietly somewhere and died as a path of reasonable further inquiry.

On the "can't hurt" theoryy of trying some supplements have added R-Lipoic acid to my cocktail of supplements.  Will see if it helps (it's the oral supplement Pravda included in in his patent application).

I do note I have UC of the transverse colon with rectal sparing, which is somewhat unusual, and does go against Pravda's point about UC starting in the rectum. 

Posted 4/27/2015 9:36 PM (GMT 0)
FS: Glad your not lurking anymore.
Anyhow for whatever reason your UC is atypical, in most people it does start in the rectum as proctitis.

Don't believe there have been any studies anywhere that might indicate that there is not excess oxidation

going on in the diseased colon/rectum.

I have posted much on redox/antioxidants/and most everything I can find on taurine/TauCl,TauBR, UC and immune function. Sort through it all, and see what conclusion you come up with.

That being said, making it all work to induce remission is perhaps another story.
A big clue perhaps that this is the correct theory is.
If I supplement with arginine which makes more nitric oxide, I get worse.
If I supplement with SOD which makes more hydrogen peroxide, I get worse.

Old Mike
My next train of thought since FMT works in some, is there a relation of gut bacteria with ROS/redox
mechanisms.
Seems that there is,there is also a lot going on with diversion colitis, gut bacteria or lack of it and ROS.
http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/9/R79


diversion colitis NO
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1018885217154#page-1


Then we have real kicker, peroxide producing commensal bacteria in IBD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20224151




As anyone can see we have a real mess going on, and not easily corrected.


seems the immune system is really stressing the microbiome with oxidative stress.
You will also notice the words, highly reactive oxygen and nitrogen metabolites, which are greatly increased in active IBD.
Also what can happen is that the bacteria can switch over to more facultative forms, from anaerobes.


This is also interesting
This raises the interesting possibility that E. coli or related species
in IBD may be highly represented because they gain a competitive advantage from
oxidative stress and are better able to compensate for it with glutathione
production.
Posted 4/29/2015 11:12 AM (GMT 0)
Well I hate to say it but,an additional method we can use to reduce oxidative stress is.

EARTHING. 

Been discussed in the past, but needs to be re-introduced as a supplement to

the RIT theory. Who knows might even be a primary cause for UC,where we have exceeded our antioxidant

capacity.

By the way I am not nuts, have not been drinking nor have I gone off into the realm of alternative

pseudoscience. Is this pseudoscience, possibly, but then again suppose not.

Much of the mess we are in depends on electron transfer.

Old Mike

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378297/

electrons are they antioxidants

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18047442/

finally found full text

http://www.earthinglink.com/Earthing%20Research%20PDF/oschman_antioxidants.pdf

antioxidants

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927345/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3154031/

you can get wrist bands cheap on amazon or I guess ebay.

Not sure I trust house ground, might be better to drive a copper rod into the earth and connect with a wire.

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/29/2015 2:05:06 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/29/2015 12:28 PM (GMT 0)
Now that's quite funny/intriguing. John Briffa, a fairly well respected MD who practices integrative medicine here in the UK, has posted about this on his blog in the past.

Might be crazy, but it might not, and walking about barefoot on the grass feels nice and is relaxing and that's reason enought to do it. Goodness knows as a city dweller with an office job I don't have enough contact with the outdoors, never mind the ground.

Maybe the long and short of it all is eat more dirt, have a pet, spend time barefoot outdoors in the sunshine.
Posted 4/29/2015 5:27 PM (GMT 0)
I was just thinking about how DIY FMT...and most FMT in general is done with lots of exposure to air which does reduce the number of anaerobes really quickly. Perhaps its the anaerobes that are more beneficial somehow, which aerobic bacteria more likely to produce hydrogen peroxide and exacerbating the problem.

OM, have you looked into whey protein supplements? I've been looking up this certain whey supplement called Immunocal. Searching pub med seems to yield that its legit, it's used in cystic fibrosis and HIV to increase glutathione levels by quite a bit. The production of immunocal is apparently why it is special as it allows double bonded cysteine to be absorbed which apparently a precursor to glutathione production?

Michael Hurst comes to mind, whose FMT story included the use of whey protein shakes. His rationale was that it healed the gut wall faster, and maybe it does, but I wonder if it also had beneficial effects on his glutathione levels. He has been in remission and off meds for years, though I don't know if he still takes whey.

As for RIT not making any major waves or picking up a lot of traction, I figure there is just a ton of momentum going behind other avenues of research primarily aimed at modifying the immune response, suppressing inflammation, or the microbiome. I usually don't like to bring up big pharma profits either, as I see that as a cop out a lot of the time, but with so much money being made from the current treatment regimens, especially the big biologics, it's really easy to just not pay attention to a solitary paper published by one IBD doctor.

Lots of viable theories have spent time being ignored before they were acknowledged, so while I do agree that it seems a little suspect that almost nothing has been said, I haven't found any papers debunking it. Very few papers have cited it at all. In any case, I think it's a good exercise in letting the science speak for itself. Reading the paper, i'm surprised by how many unique observations are all accounted for under this theory. There is no wacky pseudoscience as all his observations come from well-documented observations, I feel. Pravda conducted a small trial with great results (though its preliminary at this point) and two different labs confirmed that patients with UC had high intracellular peroxide levels.

I think treatment once the inflammatory state has been induced will require reducing inflammation and also trying to decrease intracellular peroxide somehow, but once histological remission is induced, I can imagine trying to keep peroxide levels low/antioxidant levels higher and maybe mesalamine enemas for prevention could maintain good control.

Assuming the theory is correct in the first place, of course.
Posted 4/29/2015 6:15 PM (GMT 0)
Tunnel: Yes I have used whey,it seems to help.
Possibly from the amino acids necessary to make mucus.
Is the immunocal legit, not sure if it matters or not on the heat treatment of whey,but it might.
Cysteine residues are said to be fragile.
Yes I suspect many of the strict anaerobes are killed off if FMT is exposed to air.
I do know from one of the papers in this thread that the gut bugs are highly stressed in our
guts from the immune ROS, and they change their metabolic profiles to compensate.
Not only that but due to the high oxygen tension in the gut from ROS, that a population switch
is made or the gut bugs become more facultative,that way they can use all the oxygen around.
Or guts should have a reducing environment as opposed to oxidative.


Old or not,my gut feeling is that RIT is correct, my mind also tells me it is correct.

Through in some genetics,that give us reduced antioxidant capacity and we have a oxidative mess.

Will say again arginine makes me worse, increased nitric oxide production.

SOD makes me worse, increased hydrogen peroxide.

I also happen to have AMD in my left eye started when I was 34,this is also related to oxidation.


Old Mike


here is an earlier attempt at a RIT theory 1993

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC1374216&blobtype=pdf

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/29/2015 1:56:05 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/29/2015 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah, apparently cysteine is fragile but when cysteines combine into cystine, it is more stable. That's the selling point for immunocal, but again, not sure if regular whey will do the same thing. Will have to look into that.

I find RIT to be pretty comprehensive and feel more confident standing behind it now.

I just wonder what Pravda is up to now, in 2015. Still have to email him and see what he could suggest to try at home.
Posted 4/29/2015 8:43 PM (GMT 0)
From what I can tell it will not just be ALA.
Will also need taurine,selenium,possibly butyrate, NAC,curcumin, perhaps B2, bromine,plus perhaps others which might need to be determined.
OM
Posted 4/29/2015 8:53 PM (GMT 0)
I'd imagine trying to quell the inflammation should be done at the same time. I mean if we are having tissue destruction and more h2o2 production from the immune system, that would prevent the necessary structures that create strong mucus layers from being regenerated as well. Probably why he used normal drugs side by side in the trial.
Posted 4/29/2015 9:03 PM (GMT 0)
Pretty impressed work by Pravda - thanks OM.

I must admit the neoplastic transformation section was disappointing:

"Patients with UC have an incidence of colorectal cancer
(CRC) which is up to 20 fold higher and 20 years younger
than CRC in the general population.

"Active colonic inflammation will lead to cancer due
to the high amount of H2O2 generated by infiltrating
neutrophils; however, studies have shown that individuals
with quiescent disease in “remission” have the same risk of
developing CRC as those with a more active disease course[129]
suggesting an intracellular mechanism (i.e. excessive H2O2)
which is present during remission.”

It seems that even mesalamine has nothing to do with CRC avoidance:

"5-Aminosalicylic acid (5-ASA) has been proposed as a
maintenance therapy for the prevention of CRC[131-133].
However, results are conflicting and recent studies show
that maintenance with 5-ASA does not protect against the
development of colonic cancer"

This was 10 years ago, I wonder if theory has changed regarding the above.
Posted 4/29/2015 10:01 PM (GMT 0)
Also looked at the trial again, he used cromolyn sodium in the enema, which at first glance seemed to be an antihistamine, but also has strong antioxidant properties as well.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12412677

Wonder if he tried doxantrazole, apparently has 10 times the reducing power.

Just emailed him asking him what people like us could do as well as the status of his theory and what his approach to UC is now. Hopefully he responds soon.

EDIT:
Found another thing on oxygen radical scavenging properties of grape seed extract

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9090754

Search for "Free radicals and grape seed proanthocyanidin extract:
importance in human health and disease prevention" on google too, URL is too long to post.

Gary has reported that GSE helped him quite a bit.

Post Edited (Tunnelvisionary) : 4/29/2015 4:18:33 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/29/2015 10:13 PM (GMT 0)
As of 2012 they are still not sure but would tend to err on the side of caution and give 5asa.

 With just 5asa perhaps not really getting metabolic healing,just keeping immune system a bit quite.

Tunnel: I have to suspect RIT in combo with the normal drugs will work better, as he did in his human trial.

If I remember correctly he had a 95% response rate.

I have a paper in this thread, somewhere a 5asa taurine compouned works better than just 5asa.

OM


http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/26054.pdf

something newer

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24463282

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/29/2015 4:20:40 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/30/2015 2:21 AM (GMT 0)

Old Mike said...
Going a bit further, glutathione transferase seems to be low in UC.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7787158

OM, what do you make of the fact that the other antioxidant levels are normal from this study?
Posted 4/30/2015 11:19 AM (GMT 0)
Some studies might be confounded by meds.Thanks for the question, made me do more looking.
UC is so complex no wonder they cannot find a cure.
But I have to take a stand at least for my disease, and for now it is oxidation.
Old Mike



genetic defect UC people

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21301992



down regulated in mouse dss colitis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15309552



genotypes,depending on which one, reduced detox of ROS

https://www.ecco-ibd.eu/index.php/publications/congress-abstract-s/abstracts-2014/item/p661-casecontrol-study-and-meta-analysis-of-glutathione-s-transferase-polymorphisms-in-patients-with-inflammatory-bowel-disease.html



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10975610


Good paper.

have not seen this paper before,this one also mentions that our alpha 1-antiprotease inhibitors are destroyed
by ROS, this in itself is a big deal, since using camostat or BBI bowman birk protease inhibitors can put human
UC into remission. see section 4.3 HOCL is causing the problem and that is where taurine would play a protective
role, in addition to its other roles. I also see some indication that peroxide will also deactivate it.

https://www.bioscience.org/2012/v4e/af/463/fulltext.htm


rutin, also when they checked taurine they I guess did not check taucl or br
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17141727



another good paper

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4065336/



actually not quite sure what to make of the abstract you quoted where the rest of the antioxidant enzymes

are at normal levels. But that was back in 1995. In light of all the ROS going on in the colon, hard to believe
that it is just reduced GST.
We may also have this going on from Pravda patent. So really have to believe there is also a problem
with glutathione peroxidase, whether genetic or some other reason.
On a populational level, ethnic variation of glutathione peroxidase has been recorded with individuals of Jewish or Mediterranean origin exhibiting lower activities (The Metabolic and Molecular Basis of Inherited Disease, 2001, 8th ed., p. 4650). A two to four fold increase in incidence and prevalence of ulcerative colitis has also been reported for these ethnic groups (Roth et al., 1989


here is the patent again, the remission rates are crazy high, looks like oral R-lipoic acid doing much of the work.
Yes they took enemas but 23 were on their standard meds prior to the trial with no remission.
http://patents.justia.com/patent/20150105356
Posted 4/30/2015 3:44 PM (GMT 0)
Moving on a bit to ala,is it really a ROS scavenger in vivo.

Have not read yet.

OM

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/iub.40/full

this indicates that regular ala with the S version may inhibit the R-ala.

You might also want to keep B1 thiamine supplemented s-ala liver toxic to rats low in thiamine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoic_acid

 

Posted 4/30/2015 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
In any case, it seems that with the India UC patients study, the redox status of Ashke**** populations being lower on average, and a few other studies, I think there is still a good amount of evidence supporting excess intracellular peroxide production. Seems like that study would be good to bring up to Pravda and see what he thinks.

Gonna have a read through the patent. I want to try and get some whey, ALA, and GSE next to see if any of that helps. Tried out an iron-free multivitamin after I started having black stools and it seems to have really helped relieve the constipation and now my uveitis.
Posted 4/30/2015 8:24 PM (GMT 0)
To help prove the point,that oxidation is the problem.

Some are helped with low dose naltrexone, well naltrexone has antioxidant effects,and or upregulates antioxidant

enzymes.

What else is found to really help,I have given some data on FMT.

Curcumin a know antioxidant,some were helped by vitamin E enemas antioxidant.

Old Mike

naltrexone

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18237778

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2013/296898/

 

Posted 5/1/2015 9:47 AM (GMT 0)
As mentioned earlier, I am on 275 mg of ALA a day for the past week. It's always hard to tell what helps and what doesn't, but have had a gradual reduction in my spondylarthropy symptoms (autoimmune spinal arthritis triggered by UC) in the past week as well as a further mild improvement in how formed my stools are. Based on the patent application, I wonder if I should try doubling the ALA does.

I also wondered about whey, immunocal in particular, it specifically says not to be taken if you're on immunosuppressants and I've been on imuran for years now.

Am throwing a few other things at this--tumeric, boswellia, SCD, so hard to pinpoint what's helping and what's irrelevant, but had been fairly steady state for a few weeks before adding in the ALA and am better since adding in ALA.
Posted 5/1/2015 10:10 AM (GMT 0)
What kind of ALA both R and S or just the R.
As I posted just above the S might competitively inhibit the R ALA.
OM


for those of you who might enjoy kinetics and thermodynamics redox potentials enzymes

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphar.2014.00168/full

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/1/2015 6:01:06 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/1/2015 11:10 AM (GMT 0)
R-alpha lipoic acid (RLA) and R-dihydrolipoic acid (R-DHLA) combined.
Posted 5/1/2015 11:18 AM (GMT 0)
I take the oil based ones. Wondering if they should be taken in conjunction with water-soluble R-Lipoic acid salts as well.
Posted 5/2/2015 5:41 PM (GMT 0)

Old Mike said...
To help prove the point,that oxidation is the problem.
Some are helped with low dose naltrexone, well naltrexone has antioxidant effects,and or upregulates antioxidant

enzymes.

What else is found to really help,I have given some data on FMT.

Curcumin a know antioxidant,some were helped by vitamin E enemas antioxidant.

Old Mike



naltrexone

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18237778

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2013/296898/

The first study was a little too jargon heavy for me to fully understand, but from what it seems like, LDN reduces INTRACELLULAR (within the cell) peroxide?

To play Devil's advocate, people could be helped by those things applied topically since our WBCs will produce peroxide, but the key here is that are our intracellular peroxide levels too high (which could mean antioxidant systems are low or we are overproducing h2o2)

I had another thought, all of those people in the 1995 study were low on glutathione transferase and not any other GPx related enzyme, and Pravda warned of excess B-6 and guess what... transferase is responsible for detoxifying xenobiotics...like vitamin B-6. Perhaps that is the source of excess production that can't be readily detoxified in that particular group of people?

In any case, I would feel better if we had more info confirming peroxide production WITHIN the cell is higher in UC patients. I guess Gpx enzymes would be one way of looking at it, but Pravda theorized it could be low levels of GPx enzymes or high production of H2O2 that can't be fully neutralized. Do you know of any more studies looking at that specific aspect OM?

Post Edited (Tunnelvisionary) : 5/2/2015 11:53:10 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/3/2015 10:24 AM (GMT 0)
Well at least rats and probably humans need some B6 for GPx.

Old Mike

peroxide inside cells on UC people difficult to tease much info other than what we have found

http://didattica.uniroma2.it/assets/uploads/corsi/140963/cellular_GSH_and_thiol_metabolism.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11926949

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1802975

hard to tell what is going on with B6


well here is my old B6 thread, still believe too much might not be good, food fortification a possible problem

lots of biphasic relationships might be going on

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2427278

in the liver in the plasma

http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net/index.php/fnr/article/view/25702

even the kidneys get involved in eGPx

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11978890

low GSH synthesis in crohns

http://gut.bmj.com/content/42/4/485.full

this mouse model NAC makes UC worse

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0095332

good read on the chemistry

http://didattica.uniroma2.it/assets/uploads/corsi/140963/cellular_GSH_and_thiol_metabolism.pdf


rate limiting step for GSH synthesis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704241/


glutamine will not increase at least in red blood cells not sure in other cells or serium

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11985937


but here is a story if true

http://www.immune-health-solutions-for-you.com/glutathione-relieved-her-ulcerative-colitis-symptoms.html


if you have crohns glutamine and arginine might be usefull, arginine perhaps not good for UC

it also makes me worse

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/12/2481.full

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/3/2015 12:21:05 PM (GMT-6)

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