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Amino Acid Therapy - optimal ranges of serotonin and dopamine

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Posted 7/10/2015 6:46 PM (GMT 0)
Searching for UC Safe nootropics led me here :


scdlifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Managing-the-Most-Difficult-Inflammatory-Bowel-Cases_-Amino-Acid-Therapies-for-Crohns-and-Ulcerative-Colitis.slides.pdf

Anyone have progress with amino acid therapy to obtain optimal ranges ?
Posted 7/11/2015 12:57 AM (GMT 0)
I ended up having to stop as during the last few dosage changes as the mucus/pain got out of control and I could not go through another another one. I needed meds. So it didn't work for me. But there were some noticeable difference even through the bad aspects. Lately there have been few more people asking about it. I said to Dr. Stein that I might return and try further at some point in the future, but then I landed myself in remission. Or pretty much remission for the last well, perhaps two years now... Crazy.

Essentially they say there is a defect in the OCTN1 & 2 gene, which you can look up and there is some altered expression in IBD patients. It's fairly well known actually if you dig into it.

I actually think they may be on to something in a very, very, round about way, but I don't think their "cause" or "theory" is correct and that it is definitely not the root cause.

In my case I have Crohn's - or Crohn's Disease isolated to the colon. In both Crohn's and UC there is nerve damage. This is also well known. Actually if you buy in the MAP>Crohn's Disease aspect this is exactly what MAP does. It initiates an altered accurate inflammatory response (so constant low grade inflammatory response) and targets the nerve endings at the same location as they explain in their theory. The damage to the nerves by MAP causes altered functioning and leads to the various imbalances that can be detected in patients along with altered expression of OCTN1 & 2. Professor Taylor has a study on this about IBS and Crohn's.

I have always wondered if maybe they can get around the nerve damage somehow and perhaps correct this issue with amino acids as they suggest, and have kept it in the back of my mind. But the reality is I have never found anyone that has had 100% complete success.

Hope that helps some.
Posted 7/11/2015 6:07 AM (GMT 0)
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108661/

article said...
There is a known genetic defect of OCTN1 and OCTN2 in the colon of patients suffering from Crohn’s diease.9 All OCT and OCTN transporters are capable of transporting organic cations, including serotonin, dopamine, and their precursors.8 In Crohn’s disease, the serotonin content of the mucosa and submucosa of the proximal and distal colon is increased.10 Increased synthesis of serotonin is known to be associated with Crohn’s disease.11 No reasonable explanation of the etiology of serotonin elevation in the colon tissue of Crohn’s disease patients has been put forth previously.

It is postulated that the known OCTN1 and OCTN2 genetic deficit may be tied to the increased synthesis and tissue levels of serotonin seen with Crohn’s disease. Based on OCT assay interpretation, it appears that a severe imbalance between serotonin and dopamine transport, synthesis, and metabolism is at the heart of Crohn’s disease.

An imbalance of the serotonin–dopamine transport system has been linked to numerous diseases.3,5–7 It is proposed that much of the clinical constellation found with Crohn’s disease may be induced by a serotonin toxicity of the colon exacerbated by relatively low levels of dopamine resulting from defective OCTN transport.

Ergotamine and triptans increase colonic inflammation. No surprise. Wellbutrin helps uc, it blocks dopamine reuptake. Ok.
What I don't understand, why amitriptyline helps people with ibd? Anticholinergic effect?
Posted 7/11/2015 2:59 PM (GMT 0)
The problem is the authors of that state "There is a known genetic defect of OCTN1 and OCTN2 in the colon of patients suffering from Crohn's Disease"....

Though the defect is known, it is only 'associated' like all others - and only a small portion (~20%) have certain genetic associations and these always corespond to more severe disease. So not the root cause again as basically it is not present in all. This would apply to UC as well.

There is a really interesting article on cross-reactivity between MAP and Campylobacter jejuni but I don't think it has gone anywhere:

Epitope shared by functional variant of organic cation/carnitine transporter, OCTN1, Campylobacter jejuni and Mycobacterium paratuberculosis may underlie susceptibility to Crohn’s disease at 5q31
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006291X05021923

Quickly and "Epitope" is just another word for "Antigen".

But then there is this which is a little more recent:
Expression and functional analysis of intestinal organic cation/L-carnitine transporter (OCTN) in Crohn's disease www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22325173 Saying that is it normal except in those with a mutation.

So you still end up back to these genetic defects being associated with more severe cases.

It is interesting though that certain antidepressants seem to help some with both Crohn's and Ulcerative Colitis. Again, perhaps it's just that in some they simply overcome the issues caused by the nerve damage from IBD in the first place. Or perhaps it's more a case of "luck" and they help those that have an underlying mutation, and for some reason happened to try antidepressants as a therapy ....
Posted 7/11/2015 9:28 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the summary Mark I thought you had gone down this road, sounds like it is not the success story they make is sound like.
Posted 7/11/2015 10:14 PM (GMT 0)
I think LemonHead was the only one with success, but she does not seem to be around now.
We have a huge thread/threads on the subject.
Come to think of it where is fruitgirl and sara14,remissin I hope,they were not doing this as far as I remember.
OM
Posted 7/12/2015 12:42 AM (GMT 0)
I do not understand the majority of this, but I have a question. Does it make any sense at all, with regard to neurotransmitters and UC, that I feel better since being off of Wellbutrin/Prozac? My doc thought that WB was causing anxiety so she put me on Prozac, and I have since quit that, too. I was on WB for several years prior to UC, but I never really thought I had depression, other than situational stuff that every human has.
Posted 7/12/2015 1:40 AM (GMT 0)
I just know that there has been the odd post on here about going into remission after taking Wellbrutin. I don't recall anyone feeling worse after taking it though, but perhaps it could.
Posted 7/12/2015 2:46 AM (GMT 0)
If you are deficient in folate, then taking 5-HTP is not going to work.

============ ====================

Digestive health and mood are strongly correlated. Roughly 95% of serotonin in produced in the gut. It never even gets to the brain. And we all know that serotonin is an important neurotransmitter for mood, yet only 5% is produced in the brain. Communication between the two is through the vegus nerve.

Hormones also affect mental and physical health. In particular, high cortisol is known to cause inflammation.

You can get an idea of what hormones and neurotransmitters you are imbalanced in by taking online quizzes based on your symptoms. I'm low in serotonin and high in cortisol. So I have been researching these two in-depth.

In regard to genetics...

I think most of us, if not all of us, have genes for chronic diseases. Having such genes does not mean we will get chronic diseases. The environment plays an important role by causing chemicals in our body to turn on or off genes. So certain genes must be activated or inactivated for us to get chronic diseases such as UC.

Since environmental factors are important and since neurotransmitters affect both mental and physical heath, there is much wisdom in the old adage "Laughter is the best medicine." Watch comedies and/or read comics daily.

In regard to amino acids...

Folate + 5-HTP becomes serotonin

Which means that you need both folate and 5-HTP to make serotonin.

If you are deficient in folate, then taking 5-HTP is not going to work.

And I have a feeling that many people who have UC are folate deficient due to increased blood loss and reduced absorption. You may think taking the inactive form of folate, folic acid, would be enough; however, the process to convert folic acid into folate is complex, inefficient, and does not always work. It's hard-to-get and risky to take folate because too much folate can be toxic. The best and safest way to get folate is to eat lots of dark green leafy vegetables.

You may be tempted to skip the folate and get serotonin by taking an SSRI. However, SSRI's do not increase the production of serotonin. They increase the serotonin floating around outside the cells and this serotonin gradually gets broken down by enzymes. Over time, your body will have less serotonin and the SSRI's will stop working. Side effects tend to increase. And it will be difficult to get off the SSRI's because it takes the body a long time to readjust and start producing normal levels of serotonin again (I've posted details on it before and don't want to repeat it all here.)

Post Edited (subduedjoy) : 7/11/2015 9:01:36 PM (GMT-6)
Posted 7/12/2015 9:27 PM (GMT 0)
I am no longer fooling around with individual chemicals to get a nootropic effect.

Bitter Orange does the job releasing a good blend of brain impacting stimulants. This does not bother UC the way lots of coffee does.
Posted 7/14/2015 5:02 PM (GMT 0)
I'm around, just lurking from time to time. I am still on this therapy. BUT, and it is a big BUT, I also do it in conjunction with Humira. I started them about the same time.....and I have tried to wean off of the Humira, didn't work. So, then I tried to wean off of the amino acids (as they cost a tons), but that didn't work either. So, it seems that with both of them, I can live a semi-normal life. I will say this, after I started to feel pretty good on the amino acids, I stopped getting my urine tested. For me, as I am a female, and my UC seems to be dependent on my cycle, every time I sent in a sample they wanted to change something. I just decided I felt pretty good and I was going to stick with what was working. Dr. Stein attributes my remission to the amino acids and my GI says its all the Humira. I have a colonoscopy on Monday, so we will see if I am still in remission then. As of right now, I have no blood, no muscous, and feel pretty ok. BUT, it is very expensive and I really didn't like Dr. Stein at all. If you want any additional information, let me know.
Posted 7/14/2015 8:37 PM (GMT 0)
Well as long as something is working... that's the important part.

It's interesting (and probably equally frustrating) that you tired to wean of both with negative results. But no blood and no mucus is a wonderful feeling that's for sure. Hopefully it continues for a long time. The break from symptoms must be nice - or semi-normal at least let's one accomplish things during the day and get out etc. That's awesome. Good for you!
Posted 7/15/2015 12:54 PM (GMT 0)
Canada Mark- How are you feeling? Still in remission from the Oregano oil protocol?

I will say this about trying to get off the Humira and the Amino Acids. My issues with my UC seem to stem around my monthly cycle. I believe that when I was trying to wean, my hormones definitely played a big issue in me not feeling well. But, I just feel like if it is working, I don't want to change anything at this point. What would be really interesting is if the Humira is even still working? It has been 2.5 years now, and I am wondering when I will build up antibodies. If it really is the amino acids, I would guess I would stay in remission, but who knows. As of right now, I am staying the course!
Posted 7/15/2015 1:10 PM (GMT 0)

lemonhead said...
Canada Mark- How are you feeling? Still in remission from the Oregano oil protocol?

I will say this about trying to get off the Humira and the Amino Acids. My issues with my UC seem to stem around my monthly cycle. I believe that when I was trying to wean, my hormones definitely played a big issue in me not feeling well. But, I just feel like if it is working, I don't want to change anything at this point. What would be really interesting is if the Humira is even still working? It has been 2.5 years now, and I am wondering when I will build up antibodies. If it really is the amino acids, I would guess I would stay in remission, but who knows. As of right now, I am staying the course!

Your lunar cycle is driven by fluctuating hormones. LondonLurker knows the most about which ones impact cortisol/UC etc. He posted a flood of info already which I copied down.
Posted 7/15/2015 2:47 PM (GMT 0)
Aguywithuc- You don't have to tell me......I will check out LondonLurker's post.
Posted 7/15/2015 8:15 PM (GMT 0)
I've been following this for a while and decided to try home treatment, despite warnings against it.

Its effect on my mental state has been pronounced and dramatic.

The more I read about it on Dr Stein's site though the more I realize I'm in over my head.

That said for those addressing serotonin, Dr Stein describes how to test whether you are serotonin or dopamine dominant on his site using a 5 day trial, if you have X set of symptoms you are not dopamine dependent and he tells you which therapy to take, if you do not get symptoms you are. There is also a second set of Y symptoms he said may occur that are unrelated to this and related to balancing of the tyrosine to 5-htp.

From there you can see that the pills he gives are always dose 1500mg tyrosine to 150mg 5-htp, they're together in one capsule.

From there he usually doses a pretty regular of 3x a day of 1500mg l-cysteine + folate unless it's not tolerated, then he reduces the dose and asks the patient to add it gradually.

Things get a bit messier once he introduces L-dopa to the mix and additional tyrosine independent of 5-htp (he never doses 5-htp independently so far as I can see) but he does describe some reactions that can help guide your dosing empirically (as much as he advises against it, of course it's in his best interest both financially and as a doctor to do so.)

Anxiety = too little tyrosine to 5-htp.

Depression or no improvement of symtoms = too little everything.

Worsening of symptoms upon starting l-dopa is usually too much l-dopa or too little of the tyrosine / 5-htp.

I'm just saying, it may sound complicated, but I don't think it's outside the bounds of doing it at home.

I built up from 1500mg tyrosine 150mg 5-htp twice a day to 3000 / 300 twice a day + 3x L-dopa and I got worse. I felt ALMOST excellent at 1500 / 150, a little on the anxious side, but my overall feeling of well being was good.

I'm going back to 1500 / 150 and I'm going to gradually add tyrosine back in, then start at 1 L-dopa mid day and see how I react.


I've also tried intermittent fasting which will produce similar effects on the body naturally and it felt profound! I just couldn't eat enough in a 6 hour feeding window to sustain it.

During a fast you produce catecholamines and it can potentially balance your serotonin levels. My depression and anxiety were both well under control by fasting, but i was afraid of its effect on my gut bacteria long term.
Posted 7/16/2015 12:47 PM (GMT 0)
Instantcoffee, Let us know how it goes. I hope it works for you. What supplements are you using? Did you get them from Dr. Stein? Just curious because I would love to have options in that regard.
Posted 7/16/2015 1:19 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, I'll give you some details, it's been a lot of trial and error and i just recently started reading more into his actual information and realized how much I've been doing wrong.

I have had no contact with Dr. Stein, and I couldn't use his products even if I did because i have bad reactions to rice flour in pills.

Currently I take powder form tyrosine and 5-htp I got in bulk off Amazon, unfortunately I bought N-acetyl tyrosine and I don't know if that will be the same, I don't have money to switch right now, it does -something- and feels similar to when I was taking l-tyrosine but when I run out I'll go back to what the doctor prescribes.

I take a multivitamin from Solgar that has most of the cofactors in Neuroreplete, and have Cysteine, Lysine, Vit C, and Calcium supplements on the side. I need to invest in an independent folate, selenium and B6 as well to more accurately replicate Cysreplete and Replete Plus dosing. I was worried about too much B6 before but now I understand how important it is for this process.

I can't really afford to buy everything separately and dose it myself at this current point, I'm living paycheck to paycheck.

I followed a protocol of 1500mg - 150mg tyrosine to 5-htp 2x a day plus cofactors.

I messed up and bought acetly l-cysteine at one point instead of just l-cysteine and had a terrible reaction involving yellowish green diarrhea.

I discarded it, bought the right stuff and went back, moved up to phase 2, 3 then 4 dosing.

I stayed on this dose for 1 week and experienced no improvement, depression, brain fog, and fatigue.

I did a pill stop which showed improvement of symptoms.

I read on his blog about the dopamine challenge for crohn's and the seratonin vs. dopamine dominant conditions. While Crohn's needs a test, the other conditions I've been experiencing in my life (anxiety, depression) he says strictly NO dopamine challenge because it can have bad reactions to the L-Dopa.

Since things got worse with L-Dopa for me I'm going to assume it's related and try going with his seratonin dominant protocol which is just aminos with no L-dopa.

I'll be at about half the dose he recommends to start.

I think it's interesting however how much the initial pubmed report differs from his approach on the forum members here and from the approach he describes on his website.

I feel like he's not really finished understanding his own therapy. Especially given how many of you reported feeling worse at specific dose changes.

Post Edited (instantcoffee) : 7/16/2015 7:23:12 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/16/2015 1:42 PM (GMT 0)
It sound like he has added a lot of information since I had any dealings with him. I am going to have to check out his website again. I am currently on 1 Neuroreplete, 1 D5 Macuna 40%, and 2 cysreplete all that 2x a day. IN the morning I add 1 TBS of Tyrosine. It costs me about 100 bucks a month. I never thought I would get to perfect, so when I started to feel pretty decent, I stopped experimenting.

Canada Mark are you still on the WOO treatment?
Posted 7/16/2015 5:08 PM (GMT 0)
How many milligrams does that tbs of tyrosine amount to?

Yeah I can't help but feel that he's not finished learning about this therapy himself. Like we saw with Mark, and Dr Stein himself says, the change will likely not be gradual, but like someone suddenly flipped a switch and you're right.

What kind of symptoms have you experienced with dose changes?

You'd figure with the testing tools they have they'd be able to identify that dose with less changing. Unless of course they still don't know how to achieve ideal levels or what they are.
Posted 7/16/2015 5:28 PM (GMT 0)
I will check when I get home about the mg. I don't know??
I gotta tell you, I was not impressed with Dr. Stein at all. I have been doing medical research for 20 years (I am not a doctor), but some of the things he said to me were completely out there.

symptoms with dosing changes are increased mucous/blood, and looser stools. And urgency. The urgency is the one I have the most issue with.
Posted 7/16/2015 6:50 PM (GMT 0)
Interesting, I've never had blood or mucous as a result, even from disastrously failed experiments.

Last night after my pill stop I started on a dose of 1500/150 mid day +1 mucuna. I still felt anxious so I took another 400mg of tyrosine when I got home, then another mucuna at around 6:00. I can't remember if I took another dose of tyrosine and 5-htp with that or not.

I had eaten a supper of tilapia, garlic and parlsey fried in safflower oil with green baby bananas on the side. The fish, parsley and oil are 100% safe, garlic MIGHT have been suspect and baby bananas cause gas but nothing like what I experienced.

After the D-mucuna and shortly after supper my gut started feeling tight and my heart started racing a bit. I couldn't recall if I'd taken my L-cysteine so I took 1200mg more tyrosine and 1500mg cystine and it calmed down my heart.

I continued with diarrhea until about 10pm which turned over to gas, but I was WIRED until 2am.

I think this is a reaction to the d-mucuna setting off an imbalance.

Either I shouldn't take the mucuna or I need more aminos to balance it out.

You seem fine on 1 mucuna 1 neuro 1 cys which is basically my exact dosing last night.

I might be seratonin dominant and the d-mucuna is not good for me. I've been worried about it anyway since he says that when not used properly it can have adverse effects.
Posted 7/16/2015 10:39 PM (GMT 0)
I'm here!

Just been working hard lately. Things are slow so I took to doing some old fashioned door to door cold calling for industrial clients just to see if I could rummage up some extra business. It's crazy actually cause a year or so ago I could't imagine spending a whole day driving around IBD worry free... Now I can be away the whole day and rarely think about it.

So yes, by some miracle I landed in basically a full remission. Or say 95%. Actually if I had to complain about something it would be that my poops are to big! haha... From one extreme to the other I guess.

I still take the same thing each and every day and have fine tuned my diet. Remission helped me weed out what work and what does not diet wise. I don't recall the last time I saw blood... a solid year and half ago probably. Mucus is rare unless I eat something that triggers it. But even then it's minor. And some food give me minor IBS but it passes quickly if I adjust my diet.


As for the AA's

If I recall correctly I saw quite a bit of improvement until the day I added D-mucana... And as we messed around with dosages of this over the coming weeks the mucus got out of control. Dr. Stein had said this is because the dopamine side is the trouble side... and can be hard to work out and resolve. They adjusted their protocol a little after I stopped to help "non-responders" or people having trouble with the addition of D-Mucana, but by this time I have already started with Imuran & WOO. Actually Pred as well back then. But now it's just Imuran/WOO and Vit A each and every day.

Also I'm excited to get my MAP (mycobacterium Avium Subspecies Paratuberculosis) test results back. I should have them next week.

PS - I remember the heart racing thing, but it passes over time. I also remember being super crazy sleepy.... like bed at 8pm and naps during the day type sleepy. But I was told this also passes.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 7/16/2015 4:42:54 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/17/2015 2:23 PM (GMT 0)
Never had any issues with being sleepy or heart racing.
Mark-glad you are still feeling well. I would love to get off the Humira. 6-mp is scary to me too though. Maybe do that next instead of another Biologic?? I don't know, guess I will find out Monday if any changes need to be made. Don't be jealous, I get to prep for a colonoscopy on Sunday!! Yeah. NOT.
Posted 7/18/2015 1:16 AM (GMT 0)
I just crunched some numbers.

To run the dose I'm looking at on his site of 12,000mg tyrosine daily, 1200mg 5-htp + 6 cysreplete equivalent I can bulk buy off amazon and run it at $90 / mo.

Bulk tyrosine and 5-htp powder, cysteine from NOW, then a solgar multi has the ideal folate / b6 I'll need.

I just need to supplement calcium and selenium on the side or spend extra for the multi with minerals included. I haven't done the math on those yet.

Mark I remember your story. You had a bad reaction to 3x mucuna daily but after removing the mid day dose you said you saw improvement?

He now has a protocol though with no mucuna for 'seratonin dominant' patients. This is what I'm following since I too seem to have negative reactions to mucuna.

I'm slowly increasing my dose because I'm afraid of side effects. I'm at 3200g tyrosine 1600mg 5-htp, his recommended dose is 6000, I seem to be doing better on the higher dose than at the 1500/150 when I don't add mucuna to the mix.

My heart seems more stable, I don't feel over-stimulated or sleepy anymore.

I had the sleepy thing when I started when I was on 1500/150 3x a day. I don't remember if I was taking my cysteine properly at the time and that might be why. The tyrosine and 5htp deplete a resource you need cysteine to replenish.
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