Curcumin may help overcome drug-resistant tuberculosis

Old Mike

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Posted 3/25/2016 10:39 AM (GMT 0)

Mark: Here we go, if Curcumin acts the same way on MAP as TB we might have something.

There are a number of us here that do better on curcumin.

Old Mike

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-03-curcumin-drug-resistant-tuberculosis.html

cant get full paper but the abstract is enough,even increases autophagy, which is a problem in crohns.

Then again I think I have some older research, on curcumin and MAP and crohns where ROS bursts are

reduced in macrophages. Have to try and dig it out. Much of it might be on the crohns site.

Tried finding the info, believe I was talking about other antioxidants not curcumin.

For me perhaps more interesting is, as you might remember my dad had TB as a teen back in the 1930's,

he recovered, with all the TB tine tests they gave in school when I was a kid, I never showed a immune

response.

That being said, I wonder if genetically I somehow have less resistance to MAP.

curcumin pilot study-seems not much new going on, I guess little interest by medical community

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16240238

whats going on with MAP and macrophages,URL too long had to use LINK

Here is a LINK

this is odd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25607795

well worth it to re read this paper-MAP being causal for both UC and Crohns

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3031217/?tool=pmcentrez

Abstract

Background and objective

With the worldwide emergence of highly drug-resistant tuberculosis (TB), novel agents that have direct antimycobacterial effects or that enhance host immunity are urgently needed. Curcumin is a polyphenol responsible for the bright yellow-orange colour of turmeric, a spice derived from the root of the perennial herb Curcuma longa. Curcumin is a potent inducer of apoptosis—an effector mechanism used by macrophages to kill intracellular Mycobacterium tuberculosis (MTB).

Methods

An in vitro human macrophage infection model was used to determine the effects of curcumin on MTB survival.

Results

We found that curcumin enhanced the clearance of MTB in differentiated THP-1 human monocytes and in primary human alveolar macrophages. We also found that curcumin was an inducer of caspase-3-dependent apoptosis and autophagy. Curcumin mediated these anti-MTB cellular functions, in part, via inhibition of nuclear factor-kappa B (NFκB) activation.

Conclusion

Curcumin protects against MTB infection in human macrophages. The host-protective role of curcumin against MTB in macrophages needs confirmation in an animal model; if validated, the immunomodulatory anti-TB effects of curcumin would be less prone to drug resistance development.

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 3/25/2016 6:47:17 AM (GMT-6)

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/25/2016 9:16 PM (GMT 0)

That's what all the MAP researchers are saying - impaired ability to kill mycobacteria in general, not just paratuberculosis (MAP).

Remember Dr. Zang recently published a paper on the isolation and culture of Mycobacterium avium hominissuis from someone with long standing Crohn's that sent their blood sample in. This is generally associated with infection in pigs and sometimes immunocompromised humans. I have to dig out the link to the paper but you may find it by searching his name along with Mycobacterium avium hominissuis in Crohn's patient. Not sure what the outcome was yet with their Crohn's upon treatment with antibiotics.

What the other group is saying is stop thinking about MAP specifically and start thinking about mycobacteria in general - or something new like 'son of MAP'.

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So what do people just take a teaspoon of curcumin? I'll search out some of the threads. I think I'll try it as worst case scenario it seems to be pretty healthy in general for one to take/eat anyway. I recall black pepper and curcumin.

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Also something to think about:

I was thinking today about trying Curcumin for food intolerance's to be honest. The logic being that resident macrophages are responsible for gobbling things up (large food molecules, bacteria, virus etc) that pass through the intestinal barrier and break them down and present those antigens (peptides) to T-cells or even directly respond in some cases - so I was thinking that if you induce apoptosis (kill them) with curcumin then over time they are replaced with new, immature ones.

The immature ones might behave a little better.

I'd be willing to bet that people who take curcumin long term might find a little more leeway in their food tolerances over a long period of time. Not normal again, but not as bad or less severe reactions.

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/25/2016 9:20 PM (GMT 0)

Also H2O2 is sort of the preferred way to deal with mycobacteria in general.... upon failure of that comes the nutritional immunity thing.

imagardener2

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Posted 3/25/2016 10:13 PM (GMT 0)

I'd be willing to bet that people who take curcumin long term might find a little more leeway in their food tolerances over a long period of time. Not normal again, but not as bad or less severe reactions.

Some of my food/drink intolerances have gotten better but hard to say whether it's due to lower inflammation or some other reason, just re-ordered 3 months worth of 95% curcumin, I'm a believer.

Joker

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Posted 3/25/2016 10:47 PM (GMT 0)

I don't mean to hijack the thread but I've been interested in trying curcumin. Just wondering if anyone had a recommendation on a specific brand that works well for them. I hate to blindly grab something off Amazon.

Old Mike

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Posted 3/25/2016 10:57 PM (GMT 0)

I take NOW brand, 660mg per/cap. Contains no pepper.
You can get curcumin with piperazine, which makes curcumin more bio available, which means
more gets into the blood.
I just take it with meals or any time of the day I remember.
Other ways to make more bio available is to take with some fat/olive oil.
Or dissolve in water, pop it into the microwave heat till almost boiling, let stand to cool, mix
and drink. Heating makes it more bio available for whatever reason.
Whether it needs to be more bio available, don't know.
Much is deactivated first pass in the liver anyway.
Some trials people took 3-4 grams a day.

Mark: I just take the pills,660mg, cheap enough 100 for like 15 bucks.

Curcumin does not seem to bother me, however if I take turmeric I bleed more than normal, it acts

as a blood thinner, where do not believe curcumin does.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 3/25/2016 5:04:49 PM (GMT-6)

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/26/2016 1:44 AM (GMT 0)

Thanks

I guess I'll go in search of some curcumin tomorrow. I remember a brand at the heath store but it was crazy expensive. $35 for a bottle. I like the $15 price tag better. Or in bulk but I fear that would get messy.

Joker

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Posted 3/26/2016 2:07 AM (GMT 0)

Thanks old mike! After checking it out I ordered some. I also like the fact it doesn't have pepper since that could conflict with a couple of my meds.

ewafromwarsaw

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Posted 3/26/2016 2:25 PM (GMT 0)

What worries me are the constant warnings in curcumin leaflets saying that curcumin should be avoided in liver, gall bladder or any gastrointestinal problems. I'm also thinking about trying it but I'm hesitating because of fear of doing something to the liver

Old Mike

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Posted 3/26/2016 3:51 PM (GMT 0)

EWA:

Here is a rundown, it does seem to cause gall bladder contraction so if you have stones, perhaps not good.

I have no gall bladder so I am good to go, from that aspect.

Otherwise you might want to read this whole paper, then also search google for curcumin liver

Old Mike

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1541-4337.12047/full

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/26/2016 7:38 PM (GMT 0)

I could only get something called Theracumin - 30mg per capsule made (or packaged by) Natural Factors. No clue as to what it is... Sounds like marketing crap to me, but who knows.

There was another NOW brand but it had grapeseed extract and ALA and something else. Was $40 for 60 so I went with the above.

Old Mike

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Posted 3/26/2016 8:14 PM (GMT 0)

Mark if your stuck with a bad selection up north get from amazon.
I take 660mg in one cap.
By the way I am going to mess with black pepper to see if increasing bio availability
does any better. Enough piperazine will increase bio availability 2000%.
Black pepper contains 5-10% piperazine.

Old Mike

jared9

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Posted 3/26/2016 10:20 PM (GMT 0)

Do we get the same benefits from decoction made from fresh turmeric root

ewafromwarsaw

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Posted 3/26/2016 11:39 PM (GMT 0)

Thanks Old Mike :) I don't have gall bladder stones either so maybe i should keep thinking about curcumin:)

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/27/2016 12:41 AM (GMT 0)

Just thinking:

We should try and get ahold of the full paper. It will list the dose and the source they used for their curcumin. Might as well try to duplicate it. AT least their dose source is now measurably tested - though it will be with lung macrophages, but none the less...

I'll also try and forward it on and see if we can get an opinion on the idea from Dr. Zhang or one of the other researchers. They should be able to access it to give it a quick read.

Seems better than trying to sort through all the marketing stuff and make things up on our own.

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EDIT:

Darn it... I just opened the link again and realized it was in macrophages isolated in a test tube. Not animals or a human. Still might be worth trying though.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 3/26/2016 6:55:23 PM (GMT-6)

Old Mike

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Posted 3/27/2016 1:53 AM (GMT 0)

Hey Mark here is my N=1 UC case study. Read down.

Old Mike

http://journals.lww.com/ibdjournal/Citation/2011/07000/Curcumin_for_clinical_and_endoscopic_remission_in.28.aspx

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 3/27/2016 5:33:28 AM (GMT-6)

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/27/2016 2:50 AM (GMT 0)

What an amazing difference in the colon images! And after 17 years of disease... unreal. Good for her. And good to know they feel it is safe at high doses for those that had some concerns.

It looks like she took 500mg/day for about a year.

It would be awesome if others could find some or even the same success in duplicating this.

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EDIT of my edit: I read something wrong, never mind.. ha

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 3/26/2016 8:58:07 PM (GMT-6)

Old Mike

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Posted 3/27/2016 2:01 PM (GMT 0)

The above lady was refractive to the normal meds, started pred 40mg dec 2009 plus curcumin.
10mg a week taper by Jan 2010 two months or less she was in remission. Using 500 mg curcumin.

Ok will tell of my experiment. N=1
I take pred every once in awhile for an immune attack on joints or muscles I do a 40mg fast fast
one week or less taper, pred never seems to improve my UC
So the last time I had to do this was last December, but this time I also just happened to be taking
curcumin. Low and behold I went into some form of remission for about 2 months, all bleeding stopped.

I have since lost remission but am still better than in the past 20 years or so. Continue to take 660mg curcumin a day.
I have also started to mess with the butyric acid bacteria from Japan, only one a day, does not seem
to do anything one way or the other.

Anyhow as of today I am adding about 1/16 teaspoon black pepper to the curcumin cap, just pull it apart
and you can jam the black pepper into the cap.
Then I just swallow as normal, probably not as good as the enhanced bioprene curcumin but giving it
a shot for better bio availability. I am guessing that more in the blood stream might have a better effect.
I did not mention the remission prior to this, did not want to get people overly excited at the time, and sure enough lost the remission but still doing not too bad. Also keep in mind I smoke on purpose, but have not been in any type of remission since 1986.

As far as the pred plus curcumin, it looks to me you really have to knock down the inflammation, then
the curcumin can do its job. Whether curcumin plus any 5ASA drugs and no pred works that is still
up in the air.

In case you missed it, yes I did say remission, no bleeding, stools were not great but never the less

no bleeding.

My Easter egg for you guys.

Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 3/27/2016 8:58:39 AM (GMT-6)

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/27/2016 6:03 PM (GMT 0)

Hey that's awesome news Mike !

When you think about it, maybe adding WOO and such to Imuran gave me the boost needed as well to swing the inflammation past a certain tipping point for the better.

I think of a few other people on here with other types of natural antioxidants/anti-inflammatory approaches that have also has similar results when combined with some meds.

Old Mike

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Posted 3/27/2016 6:47 PM (GMT 0)

Hey Mark: I think I have mentioned in a few times, Imuran suppresses MAP.
A lot going on with MAP/TB and NF-kB got to be a secret in here somewhere.
Immune subversion by up regulating inflammation, causing macrophage dysfunction.

OM

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/28/2016 3:32 AM (GMT 0)

In that inflammation pathway, too little activation means uncontrolled bacteria growth, and to much causes massive tissue damage from the excessive release of TNF-a. It is highly regulated.

However both the pathogen (TB) and us (Host) are trying to (and actually do) control it for different reasons. Us, for tissue damage control and TB for survival.

The kicker is that when it is down regulated, TB also changes form and then becomes a latent infection. It sits and waits under the immune systems radar happily within the immune cells and we show no sign or symptom of active disease. Perhaps MAP does the same. After all ~1 in 3 of us have TB and we have no idea we even do.

From what I understand this is what they are trying to figure out & understand with MAP (or son of MAP) - how do you kill off something that when you remove inflammation etc, it just reverts to a different form and hides away within an immune cell under the radar.

Actually same thing with TB as well. How do they kill it off for good.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 3/27/2016 9:59:07 PM (GMT-6)

Canada Mark

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Posted 3/28/2016 3:58 AM (GMT 0)

I think the other thing they are looking for is are they able to secrete something when they are active that causes an excessive immune reaction. A student just recently published a thesis at the University of Guelph here in Canada identifying something like 100-150 new proteins MAP is capable of secreting.

Old Mike

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Posted 3/28/2016 12:39 PM (GMT 0)

Perhaps something going on with NOD2, this came out this AM.

NOD2 a real problem with crohn's.

Old Mike

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/10915/?WT.rss_f=UC

and seems to make UC refractory

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24651958

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 3/28/2016 9:09:58 AM (GMT-6)