Food-poisoning bacteria may be behind Crohn's disease

/www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161007140324.htm

"People who retain a particular bacterium in their gut after a bout of food poisoning may be at an increased risk of developing Crohn's disease later in life, according to a new study."

Full study: (In mice only but with bacteria isolated from a crohn's patient)
journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1005907

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Well, we got a lot of options for potential causes lately - biofilm, fungus, map, e-coli... or all of them together somehow. Sheesh.

I will say, that for me - the food poisioning thing is most relevant when I think back. I had a month long bout with something. A tiny bit of blood and small amount of mucus each day with loose stool and mild fever at times, but no food intolerance issues. Then one morning I awoke and had an absolutely crazy intense bout of D - like a full on colonoscopy prep. From that day on I was perfectly fine for about a year, them wham. I awoke again one day and have never been the same since gut wise. If I remember correctly, the second time (tipping point) when the full blown disease really hit was shortly after a bout of ABX for an infection on my thumb from a very deep cut.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 10/9/2016 12:16:48 PM (GMT-6)

Well you know fungi, in the dark and surround by crap...it's really not shocking when you think about how it's linked to IBD lol.

Well another possible piece of the puzzle, I notice NO probably from iNOS is playing a role.
I also see they mention AIEC in relation to UC, but of course we have known about
AIEC for quite some time. This is a different type of mouse model then the DSS models.
We now seem to get another piece of the puzzle every other week, the problem is the
puzzle just keeps getting bigger.
I did have a 2 week case of the Korean craps in late 1971,where the spasms
were so bad I felt something tear and burn, but it went away.
Sometime in spring 72 had huge rectal abscess ,needed emergency surgery,
healed but then developed, on going fistula between then and UC onset in 1980. Also quit smoking in 77, plus job stress.
Old proctologist said fistula probably led to the initial proctitis.
Every time I read a new study, I remind myself to thank the poor mice and rats.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/9/2016 5:46:49 PM (GMT-6)

In relation to the above study from McMaster there is also this one:
Crohn’s Disease May Be Differentiated Into 2 Distinct Biotypes Based on the Detection of Bacterial Genomic Sequences and Virulence Genes Within Submucosal Tissues
www.paratuberculosis.net/publications/chiodini-jcg2013.pdf

Two of the authors are long term MAP researchers and Dr. Chamberlin currently treats his patients with triple ABX for MAP.

1) Mycobacteria were highly associated with stricturing Crohn’s disease patients
2) invasion/adherence were associated with all types

Now this is one heck of a tough read/mind wrap - but I believe what they are suggesting/questioning is if there is a really high load of bacteria then the adherence genes found in some Escherichia (e-coli), Salmonella, and Yersinia can be transferred to other bacteria... they are wondering if these genes are getting transferred to our commensal bacteria, leading to a problem.

This is actually a really scary scenario - but makes me think of fecal transplant successes. Changing the overall population types etc. Also makes me think of negative sides of fecal transplant.

The super interesting thing is that a 'food poisoning' event has been shown to lead to this type of bacterial population explosion - especially favouring e-coli.... soooooo.....

The plot perhaps thickens I guess one could say. Also I may have misunderstood what they are suggesting cause it hurts to read the darn paper. Maybe someone else has a different take on it.

From your last posted paper.
Most of the organisms significantly elevated within the submucosa belonged to the Phyla Firmicutes (Gram-positive facultative or obligate anaerobes) and Proteobacteria (Gram-negative facultative anaerobes), with smaller representation by bacteria of the Phylum Bacteroidetes and Actinobacteria

Facultative or obligate anaerobes, = excess oxygen due to ROS.
Some sort of defective killing, or resistance to the killing.

Possible defective NOD2 related.

Another mystery is how can enteral feeding put crohns into remission, yet when a normal
diet is restarted the disease progresses. The last time I searched it years ago the answer
was at that time unknown.

I have not read this one in years, just re-read the abstract and immediate relapse with
green veggies, what is that about. Bacteria food?, now have to read the whole thing.

Wow structures and veggie residue seemed to cause the relapse.
Brussel sprouts,carrots,onions,cauliflower and green beans were added.

A possible connection might be that it is just cellulose getting stuck and growing bacteria,
humans don't have cellulase or very little,so it cant be digested in the small intestine.
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1378894/

Reminds me somewhat of the SCD or FODMAP diet, the question is what happens
if you do not have any strictures, or do most people have them.
Or does fiber/cellulose just gets stuck in certain places for some reason,or it sits at the
IC valve to long and grows bacteria.
These diets restrict a lot of foods but perhaps for the wrong reasons,
perhaps all cellulose needs to be restricted.

Again why would enteral feeding put crohns into remission if crohns were due to map,
or autoimmune,or even invasion by other bacteria. Yet the guy could exist on a normal
diet minus veggies.

It might be a good idea for the doc's to get back to basics and to find out what is going on here.

they are working on it all fibers not created equal
www.jimmunol.org/content/196/1_Supplement/67.11

Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/15/2016 4:51:45 AM (GMT-6)

I believe it is exposure to 3rd world bacteria which has been brought on by mass increase in travel of northern peoples to tropical locations in the last 50 years which never before in the history of mankind ever took place. I know for a fact I got UC while on a 2 month trip to mexico 8+ years ago from some bacteria somewhere whether in water, on a surface or in my food.

Katmom: Not exactly sure of your real question, but here are some of the mechanisms.
involved. Lots of chemical messages.
As far a loss of the colon not sure what goes on, but I do know that you miss
about 10% of calories derived from carbs if you don't have a colon.
And yes of course colon gut bacteria or loss of them might make many different
metabolic changes in the body.

There is also something called the ileal brake, I do know that when the ileum sees fatty acids
from broken down fats in knows to shut off eating, if I remember.
Old Mike

www.dummies.com/health/nutrition/how-your-brain-signals-your-bodys-need-for-food/

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938408002278

Also quickly,

Our body does not 'recognize' food.... like most health sites argue about new wheat/GMO and sh!t like that. That is completely false. Our immune system does not work that way. Food is foreign, plain and simple. So are bacteria, virus and fungi etc. The two are treated identically in a way.

One of the ways tolerance to food is developed in the small intestine. Food molecules trigger an immune response, but the response is to generate peripheral regulatory t-cells. These dampen the immune response preventing a reaction to the food and allow us to 'eat' without issue.

One of the ways our bodies develop tolerance to bacteria is exactly the same, but this happens in the colon. The bacteria trigger a population of peripheral regulatory t-cells. These dampen the immune reponse and allow us to tolerate or live with all the bacteria in our colons.

The two are separate from each other, but work the same way. The immune system creates regulatory t-cells that stop the intense immune reaction we would otherwise have. Food tolerance, small intestine, bacterial tolerance, large intestine.

EDIT: I often think about FT from this perspective - Taken FT orally (or tube) might create tolerance pTreg's from a different pathway (i.e. food antigen pathway) versus the colon. If that makes any sense to you.... you have to think abut it for a second or two. So you are maybe tricking the body in a sense into believing the bacteria are food, re-establishing tolerance...


EDIT AGAIN: Then there is this: /www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4616201/

This and subsequent reports found that these Tregs paradoxically represent a greater fraction of LP CD4+ T cells in the intestines of IBD patients than healthy control subjects and are no less common in bowel affected by IBD than in bowel inflamed for other reasons, such as infection. Paradoxically, Tregs are even more common in actively inflamed than uninflamed IBD mucosa, with a reciprocal drop in circulating Treg frequency in the peripheral blood of symptomatic IBD patients likely reflecting sequestration of these cells to the site of inflammation.

So maybe in our colon's - although terribly inflamed, our immune system is actually doing the right thing and trying to 'save' us from death of the organ and eventually death of us due to other inflammation pathways/infection of some sort. Insert more confusion, haha.

I'd like to believe our immune system is far 'smarter' than us humans.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 10/10/2016 2:22:08 PM (GMT-6)

Mark: From the paper I posted on enteral feeding.
This is what I find very strange and this was done over a 4 year period.

Carrageenan, other permitted emulsifiers, bread, meat, potatoes, oranges, refined sugar, dairy produce, flour, and rice were all reintroduced without any objective ill effect, but green vegetables provoked a clinical and biochemical relapse within one week of introduction.

Also from the ileal brake info, they seem to indicate that some undigested food gets to the ileum.
Most crohns is in the ileum or at least starts there.

Anyway it looks to me at least in this guys case he can eat other foods and it is the fiber
that is sticking around and causing perhaps bugs to grow.

This is strange very strange.

Old Mike

Well I can do spinach, romaine lettuce and peas without issue and in moderation perhaps. Any other green veggie is a complete no go in a big way. Painful reaction.

Maybe there are some 'annoying bacteria' on and within green veggies. Or maybe as you say it's the fiber. Fiber is a no go as well. Actually any raw veggie aside from romaine lettuce and spinach is a no go for me. Undercooked peas are a no go to. My sister did this to me recently. Was painful.

Perhaps instead of fiber feeding bugs, we are simply lacking bugs to break fiber down. ? Breaking it down would make it less immunogenic. Or a combo of both.

In UC however food does not seem to be an issue for most - but I guess that is wide ranging per individual.

It's like thee is no rhyme or reason to our individual tolerances, that's why to me what the map guy wrote made sense.

I forgot to say earlier, that maybe the triple ABX work well for Crohn's because they inadvertently target both MAP and AIEC or other bacteria that may have picked of these adherent and intracellular invasion genes during a food poising event.