Radical Induction Theory-Time to re-visit

thanks for your post vanjordan, very helpful

Old Mike, I found a thread where you said you took grape seed extract and it helped you. Grape seed extract is an antioxidant that is a potential remedy under radical induction theory. You're on the right track!

Gee this thread is 7 years old and still going. I sort of gave up on curing UC 3-4 years ago,with a none
drug approach.
Oldmike

Hello to everyone. First post here. Came upon this thread in a Google search for radical induction theory. I was diagnosed with UC in February, very recently. Glad to see how active this discussion is! I’ve been researching this intensely.

I contacted Dr. Pravda directly with some questions. Unfortunately his responses were quite underwhelming.

I asked him his thoughts on NAC versus ALA as an oral reducer, and he said he didn’t know which was superior.

I asked him about his thoughts on extra-intestinal manifestations of UC such as mouth ulcers, joint pain, eye inflammation…and he couldn’t explain that, either.

Nevertheless I think this theory is extremely compelling.

This study showed clinical remission was boosted by 16% for patients taking NAC w/mesalamine compared to mesalamine alone.

This study showed 6 of 168 patients taking NAC relapsed, compared to 19 in the placebo group.

You can also find studies showing a combination of ALA and NAC taken together actually had no effect on patients, and in some cases, worsened inflammation.

Probably antioxidants alone are not the solution, but based on Pravda’s research, it sounds like the longer H2O2 and inflammation are reduce during colonic cell division, the better off you are. Maybe that’s why his enema contains sodium butyrate to temporarily suppress gene expression? I’m really not sure.

Thanks for letting me be here…really interested in reading more from you all.

Edit: I would also like to add, I was diagnosed with uveitis 20 years ago, which is supposed to be an incurable disease where the immune system is implicated. It was so bad, I couldn’t even close my eyes without my eyelids being overstretched due to swelling.

My most recent eye exam (March 2022) showed no evidence of disease, and complete healing. The doctor said if I hadn’t told him I had uveitis history, he would have never known.

Spontaneous improvement…

VanJordan said...

I invite you to the other thread about this subject where I have made extensive notes that may help you understand:
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=4285467

Wow…and I thought I had done my research! I haven’t even scratched the surface of your studying. Thanks for the link.

Funny how people in UC support groups without any knowledge on this subject are making anecdotal claims about what helps them, and it’s typically in line with what SHOULD help given the radical induction theory.

Dr. Pravda came across as someone with quite a bit of angst in his response to me, even implying a research narrative is being controlled by pharmaceutical companies. It was a bit demoralizing, but if he’s confident in his treatment guidelines, that’s all that really matters to me.

Thanks again.

Old Mike said...
Something else to ponder,perhaps Pravda is not quite correct,or its the amount,or location,type of cell.ect,ect.
https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/headlines/hydrogen-peroxide-keeps-gut-bacteria-away-from-the-colon-lining-/2020/12#:~:text=scientists%20%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3Eat%20%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3Euc%20%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3Edavis%20%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3Ehealth,their%20%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3Estudy%2c%20%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3Epublished%20%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3Edec.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc5835490/

Oral antioxidants dont work in mice.

Oldmike

Thanks for sharing, Mike. I've seen this study. H2O2 is used by the body for many things. For example, our immune cells use it to kill bacteria after they engulf them. H2O2 being used inside of the colon to control bacterial populations is different than H2O2 beyond the colonic epithelium to cause tight junction failure. So location likely matters, as does quantity like you said.

I don’t think there will ever be one thing that solves UC . Even if the RIC helps with healing it will in all probability require a holistic approach to keep it in remission forever.
Ultimately it sounds to me like perhaps it would be more helpful to improve liver health so that it can work efficiently to provide the right combination of antioxidants that can support mucosal healing and also balance out any excess hydrogen peroxide (if these are the the problem in the first place) versus looking for the right combination of gut supplements.

Seeker275 said...
I don’t think there will ever be one thing that solves UC . Even if the RIC helps with healing it will in all probability require a holistic approach to keep it in remission forever.
Ultimately it sounds to me like perhaps it would be more helpful to improve liver health so that it can work efficiently to provide the right combination of antioxidants that can support mucosal healing and also balance out any excess hydrogen peroxide (if these are the the problem in the first place) versus looking for the right combination of gut supplements.

You may be right, that it will take a bunch of things to achieve sustained remission. However, if hydrogen peroxide is the most immediate, extreme factor, eliminating that could save lives without the need for radical interventions.

If a genetic problem is the reason for excess hydrogen peroxide production, then unfortunately liver medicine won't change that.

LowLead said...
I agree. It’s really frustrating seeing drugs like Zeposia marketed as a novel treatment when you actually look at it’s efficacy. 18% clinical remission rate, of which only 37% were able to maintain remission. I understand perspective is key, and that might be encouraging to people with serious refractory disease, but those percentages are lower than studies done with OTC drugs that *aren’t* being marketed, let alone recommended by gastroenterologists. We deserve better.

Immune suppression doesn't work because: a) UC patients don't have an immune problem. The immune system is just attacking gut flora that are passing through a damaged colon wall caused by excess hydrogen peroxide; and b) Hydrogen peroxide is still being produced and damaging the gut, even if the immune system is hardcore suppressed.

I have refractory disease... I'm one of that unlucky 10%. When I flare, the only thing that partially stops it (but never completely) is high dose prednisone. I was just in a 2 year flare in which my prednisone dose varied between 20-40mg. Two months ago when I discovered Dr. Pravda's theory, I hit the books, and started taking specific antioxidants. I am now on 1mg of prednisone and about to enter remission. This information has been a godsend to me. I really feel that this theory is spot on... nothing has helped me so immediately and reliably.

For example, the other day I got some thyroid tests back and my thyroid is a little low. Started taking Lugol's iodine, and within 3 days I started having increased D again. Looked it up, and iodine is an oxidant.

Looked back in my journal to when I tried other antioxidants... like resveratrol. It made me worse. But it's an antioxidant? No. It's an oxidant. It only functions as an antioxidant in genetically-normal people because the increased oxidation drives the body to increase its reduction capacity. But if you're a UC patient, that won't work, so resveratrol makes you worse.

I even tried MMS, which is controversial. It's basically chlorine dioxide solution. It initially helped because I think it killed a parasite I had, but then my whole body got way worse, and I also suffered hemolytic anemia. (Yeah I know, please don't judge me, it was stupid of me to do it... but I was desperate.) Chlorine dioxide is an oxidant.

I tried high dose vitamin C therapy, orally and by IV. Synthetic vitamin C is ascorbate, which is oxidized. It made me worse. Switched to natural vitamin C, like camu, acerola cherry, rosehip, orange juice... I got better. Natural forms are the reduced form.

Even little things like... I took expired vitamin E and it made me ill. Turns out expired vitamin E is oxidized, whereas when it's new it's reduced and that's why vitamin E therapy (rectally or orally) helps UC patients. It donates reducing equivalents to reduce oxygen radicals and hydrogen peroxide.

Stress? Increased oxidation = UC flare. Sunburn, too much sun exposure? UV increases free radicals by damaging tissue = increased oxidation = UC flare. I live in the pacific northwest... when there's forest fires I flare. Why? Smoke inhalation = oxidative damage = flare.

Conversely, smoking cigarettes helps many people with UC because chemicals in tobacco inhibit the electron transport chain in mitochondria by up to 82%, whose end receptor is oxygen (O2). That oxygen is the source of oxygen radicals that form downstream hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). When UCers stop smoking, the electron transport chain picks back up again, starts pumping out radical oxygen, and UCer genetics lack the ability to deal with the hydrogen peroxide.

Homocysteine is often high in UCers because our poor absorption leaves us deficient in B6, B12, and folic acid, which are cofactors needed to convert and eliminate it. When homocysteine builds in the body, it inhibits glutathione peroxidase (GPx) which is what reduces hydrogen peroxide to water, so hydrogen peroxide increases. At the same time, homocysteine causes more superoxide dis.mutase (SOD) (I added a period to avoid forum censorship, so silly) to be created to deal with the oxygen radicals, and SOD creates more hydrogen peroxide.

I'm giving all these examples because... EVERYWHERE I look, everything leads back to a hydrogen peroxide problem. I have tested Pravda's theory with everything in my life that has made my UC worse or better and it all fits.

Post Edited (VanJordan) : 4/8/2022 1:10:38 AM (GMT-6)

VanJordan said...
…

I appreciate all of that so much! Makes sense. I’d like to sit down with an immunologist and talk about these things. Pick their brain. For example…my body produces a histamine reaction to alcohol on occasion. I also have ASCA antibodies. I’m no expert, but wouldn’t that mean consuming saccharomyces cerevisiae is pro-inflammatory for me? Should I be avoiding wheat?

None of this is discussed in 20 minute appointment windows. “Here’s your mesalamine RX. See you in a few months.”

This makes a cure more difficult,perhaps need more catalase,somehow.
Oldmike
https://www.jpp.krakow.pl/journal/archive/12_09_s6/pdf/49_12_09_s6_article.pdf

another
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc3695303/

gut bugs and amino acids
https://journals.lww.com/imd/fulltext/2021/06000/evaluation_of_the_mechanisms_underlying_amino_acid.4.aspx

I hae also mentioned in the past that if I took arginine I got worse,just found this, The arginine paradox.
https://www.karger.com/article/fulltext/327777

branched chain amino acids and infection mostly for my reference,arginase
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.02.974345v1.full

citrulline.ASL,NO
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/s2211-1247(18)30612-0.pdf

Oldmike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/12/2022 10:34:35 AM (GMT-6)

like!

Be sure to read the studies posted just above my last post.
Oldmike