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Van Jordan/Dr. Pravda (antioxidant method

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Posted 8/22/2022 10:09 PM (GMT 0)
Respect for Old Mike here ;-)....all the excitement, commotion and upheaval over this pravda protocol and its something Old Mike researched and done and dusted years ago!!!!
Posted 8/22/2022 10:29 PM (GMT 0)
It is still a good theory and probably close to correct. I know that before my sons UC onset he had
sulfur farts that could clear a room,cant remember if I had them or not. Anyway hydrogen sulfide, nitric oxides,
and hydrogen peroxide are a bad mix.
Oldmike
Posted 8/22/2022 10:56 PM (GMT 0)
This is the paper I keep referring to https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s147149142030157x

Old Mike, what do you think?

In particular
Considering the role of oxidative stress in IBD, implementation of antioxidant therapy would seem to be a rational therapeutic choice. In fact, commonly prescribed 5-aminosalicylic acid (5-ASA) compounds exert their therapeutic effects largely through antioxidant mechanisms because they are important scavengers of reactive species [25,85]. 5-ASA derivatives are known to inhibit peroxynitrite (ONOO−)-mediated reactive species formation [20]. Nonetheless, many antioxidant therapies have so far been disappointing [18]. These failures could be attributed to the fact that reactive species are part of an elaborate and highly complex redox signaling network that primarily serves a physiological purpose, and patients display considerable heterogeneity in their responsiveness to treatment. This makes it unreasonable to assume that a single antioxidant supplementation would confer marked health benefits in all patients. Antioxidant therapies might better be targeted to patients preselected for pathological overproduction of select reactive species, with careful monitoring to avoid interference with physiological redox signaling
.....

Given the complex pathophysiology of IBD and the indeterminate role of individual RSI constituents, many potential factors need to be controlled for to obtain unequivocal evidence for the effects of antioxidant therapy in IBD. Only a few randomized controlled trials (RCTs) have rigorously investigated the therapeutic efficacy of antioxidants in IBD... Most of these RCTS were performed using relatively low antioxidant dosages, low-potency antioxidants, short follow-up periods, and patient groups with only quiescent or mild disease activity. The remaining body of clinical trials investigating antioxidant therapies consists of largely uncontrolled studies in patient populations of considerable phenotypic heterogeneity.
In addition to anti-inflammatory and antioxidant therapy in IBD, dietary provision of nutritional precursors is a key determinant of an individual’s redox status by driving intermediary metabolism in the RSI. To improve the effectiveness of these nutritional precursors, a promising future therapeutic strategy consists of the application of colon-targeted delivery systems (CTDSs) to modulate the RSI of the local intestinal microenvironment [91,92]. This avoids absorption of RSI precursors in the small intestine and may permit direct modulation of the mucosal RSI. In circumstances of uncontrolled oxidative stress, this pharmacological approach could become an intestinal RSI-modulating route for restoring gut redox balance by enabling effective and gut-selective delivery of precursors exclusively to the site of inflammation and/or oxidative stress [93]. Furthermore, as our understanding of the molecular signatures characterizing the RSI grows, this will lead to a better understanding of how to modulate this system for improved outcome using rational nutritional interventions tailored to an individual’s nutritional status in a personalized medicine approach

Dr Pravda is not mentioned anywhere in this comprehensive paper, and hydrogen peroxide is mentioned twice.
Posted 8/22/2022 11:12 PM (GMT 0)

poopydoop said...
Of course meds and alternatives are not mutually exclusive... but if you start both at around the same time and get better then you have no idea which one is helping you. Therefore,it is sensible to try one thing at a time (I've even said the same thing on threads where people are thinking of adding meds to their meds.

And if someone says look this protocol is working for me... but fails to mention they started meds around the same time.... that is not really honest....to themselves


I think this is a common misconception about radical induction theory. Maybe some people just aren't reading the research. There truly seems to be a Dunning–Kruger effect going on here. Had anyone visited page 4 of this thread, they'd be guided to a link that includes 303 citations, and I wouldn't have needed to post them again on page 7. Though apparently it doesn't matter, because even after being asked to provide sources on demand, people will still find reasons why they're "likely" invalid (without providing their own sources...go figure).

As far as treatment is concerned, it involves "meds". Despite what other members have teasingly said...

kyle_dn said...
Oh no....they will be adding onions now to pravda's enemas

...these aren't onion enemas. You cannot compound a mesalamine, sodium butyrate, sodium cromolyn, and budesonide enema without a prescription, at least where I live. It's also extremely difficult to source R-dihydrolipoic acid, though it currently treats diabetic neuropathy in some places.

That being said, there is such a thing called off-label use. For example, I have a relative that's prescribed low dose naltrexone (an alcohol/drug abuse drug) for its anti-inflammatory properties.

The reason supplements and alternatives are being mentioned is because the process of patenting treatment, marketing it to a pharmaceutical company like AbbVie, getting them to sponsor the treatment, getting the WHO to add all of the ingredients to the list of essential medications, adding it to insurance drug formularies etc. is probably a lengthy process, and a former member here happened to have good information on the chemistry involved and how to possibly get some semblance of partial application.

You should also understand how lifestyle changes impact ulcerative colitis, so any discussion on that shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone. Some of the critics here are already taking dietary supplements as part of a lifestyle change.

It's not difficult to understand, though, I work with the general public and am not particularly surprised by some of the comments I'm reading. I'm not here to convince anyone, especially if you're comfortable with your long-term prognosis and treatment. That's great. The dissenting members have mostly moved on, much to the appreciation of a lot of you. I'm mostly here still because Old Mike adds valuable information to the relevant topic.
Posted 8/22/2022 11:15 PM (GMT 0)

straydog said...
@CC, I do not think any posts were "pruned/deleted" in this thread by a mod or the admin. I will point out that HW is running on the same old antiquated software from it's inception. It got a facelift but that's all.

In the locked long thread I did comment that the admin had been on that day & "maybe" he deleted some posts. Turns out posts were lost in some other forums that day too. This is not the first time posts have disappeared. We often see the "missing key value" show up in forums, it's a glitch.

If you have a copy of what you posted, you can bring it back.

Thanks, Susie. I will just let it go at this point.
Posted 8/22/2022 11:21 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks LowLead....those dissenting members as you call them will not be missed. No need to update us on the issue.

Post Edited (kyle_dn) : 8/22/2022 4:24:18 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 8/22/2022 11:26 PM (GMT 0)
That's interesting poopydoop. When I completely stopped oral mesalamine earlier this year I had a few weeks of lots of gas and less normal stools. Perhaps it had something to do with removal of the extra antioxidant and my colon took time to adjust. Everything returned to normal after few weeks, but I was a bit concerned that I would have to resume taking the mesalamine.
Posted 8/22/2022 11:39 PM (GMT 0)
Lowlead... my post was in response to TAA's comment about trying alternatives and medications together. It was not specific to radical induction theory.

As for referring to the paper with 303 references...I assume you mean pravdas paper....most of us have read that and been underwhelmed... for the reasons explained in our earlier posts. It's written in a simple style accessible to non specialists, rather than a technical piece for specialists.

Post Edited (poopydoop) : 8/22/2022 7:00:16 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 8/22/2022 11:50 PM (GMT 0)
Poopy:
Sure another good paper,H2S,nitric oxide and hydrogen peroxide is a bad mix in the colon.
But we are missing something. Could even be over supplementation,causing a pro oxidant
mess,even too many antioxidants in some foods. I have old threads on IBD history started to uptick 1890"s
or so,pre antibiotics,just about pre vaccines,wesson oil,crisco,aluminum in baking powder,copper pipes,pasturization,refrigeration,MAP bacteria,too much office/factory work,night shifts,and on and on.
Are we too clean,use too much soap.
I even have an old thread on why kids should pick their nose and eat it.
For me could even be Agent Orange for all I know.
I am presumptive exposed,not many know it was used on the DMZ in Korea,was there 1971.
Or have we lost tolerance to our gut bacteria.
old thread

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3435675

for good measure another old thread autophagy

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3098763

Oldmike
Posted 8/23/2022 2:09 AM (GMT 0)

poopydoop said...
Lowlead... my post was in response to TAA's comment about trying alternatives and medications together. It was not specific to radical induction theory.


I understand. My reply is generalized since I'm seeing people say this is a Dr. Pravda/VanJordan protocol, akin to the autoimmune protocol diet, or some other naturopathic approach. It's not medicine versus alternatives. It's not...whatever attempt at sarcasm this was:

steve_rd said...
I'll take a blueberry and some vit C!!!!

It's just medicine. A growing paradigm shift that has been substantiated here by the countless amounts of articles posted shows preventing translocation of bacteria into the sterile subjacent lamina propria will stop inflammation at the source, which has the potential to be significantly more powerful than trying to dam up inflammation after it's started, with a lower risk factor than inhibiting your TNF. In order to do this, the colon needs time to heal, mitochondrial heteroplasmy needs to be stopped, and systemic pre-inflammatory markers need to be reduced, the latter of which can be done via oral drug(s).

This is no different than individuals that get UC under control with rectral treatment, then take an oral maintenance medication. Somehow, probably through a combination of laziness and pseudo-skepticism, it's being construed as medicine versus the Dr. Pravda protocol with special interests, when it's clearly not.
Posted 8/23/2022 2:13 AM (GMT 0)
Agreed LowLead - I can confidently say that most in this thread have not spent the 3+ hours required to read and understand Pravda's paper just based on reading the dialogue going on here. The paper is a potential game changer. But sure, keep throwing $6000 a month immune suppressing infusions at the problem that have very low efficacy figures and high long term relapse rates.

Maybe its time to think differently about UC. Pravda provides a well researched path towards the future of UC care...hopefully someone takes the ball and runs with it.
Posted 8/23/2022 2:45 AM (GMT 0)
It doesn't cost $6000 a month outside the US
Posted 8/23/2022 3:20 AM (GMT 0)

kyle_dn said...
That is all well and good TAA only there is no cure for UC. It has not been found and the real experts in the field feel it is a very very long time away.

You are obviously still relying on Entyvio which is a very expensive drug. You have not dropped this medication. It is a medication that I'm sure is subsidized for you by the Australian government and de facto by the Australian tax payer. I'm sure you have paid all your taxes and well deserve this med. But rather than worrying about false claims and what was said to upset that other poster why not worry about the thousands of people suffering from UC and CD in disadvantageous areas who do not have access to the drugs like Entyvio that you do. The many people who cannot ring up a GI, who cannot be put on biologics, who cannot receive urgent medical care....like you can.

It would be great if a cure would come like it did in some ways for the stomach ulcer case you mentioned. But it has not come. And for the many of us who have suffered at the hands of this disease then hearing that rubbish for the last 3 months about root cure of UC has been found was enough to make our blood boil.


Anyone at such a disadvantage has nothing to lose trying the pravda protocol then. As for your other comments. No entyvio is not working for me yet. I’m still suffering along with everyone else who has this inhumane illness. You’ve also completely missed the point

Post Edited (Theanxiousaries) : 8/22/2022 8:23:34 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 8/23/2022 9:25 AM (GMT 0)
TAA, I think what quincy was saying and what I was saying as well is that over the year you have had a lot of support on HW to your queries. You have had a lot of help, input and suggestions. There was even one time when you wrote complaining that no member was replying to your Entyvio query. It is also important to give back, to help and support others. And constantly writing because other members disagree with your view points doesn't do you much service. Writing a post telling someone that you are putting them on ignore is a little silly.
Posted 8/23/2022 11:39 AM (GMT 0)
That's a decision for you to take TAA. You have received enormous support here and that is what the site is for. Reply to a member's query, give support, talk about your own experience, look outward rather than inward and you will find you get much more from this site then constantly griping about stuff.
Posted 8/23/2022 11:59 AM (GMT 0)
Imagine being a new member and told you ask too many questions on a support forum or being told my anxiety is my biggest problem when my user name is TheAnxiousaries.. clearly I’m aware of my anxiety. The only ppl worthy of respect on this forum are those who a deemed veterans because they have suffered longer. I’m not here to give support. Im a new member who was here for support! How can I offer support to others yet? How rude to suggest I give to others when I can’t even help myself! FYI I have given support where I could.. sorry you haven’t followed that post as closely. I appreciate those who helped me!! I know who they are. I’ve thanked them for everything so don’t make out I’m unappreciative. I’m directing this at “Veteran” members who think they’re above trivial questions from Newbies but see nothing wrong with causing conflict and will come back every day for it. I’m on entyvio warriors and Everyone on their is lovely and extremely supportive. This forum is toxic
Posted 8/23/2022 1:17 PM (GMT 0)
taa...It is well recorded that I have been critical of senior members here. at times there is a tendency to over-state there own personal experiences esp to new members. With that said I could not find fault with any of those members in terms of giving support and helping and advising on issues. I've yet to see a post from a distressed HW member that has been thoroughly answered.

it is a balancing act. you cannot expect to receive on forums without giving something back and when you do i think you integrate into the forum community much better. I may disagree at times with posts and say my piece but i respect that others will have diff views. I'm more happy for the members that have remained on this forum than for the ones who have left. That is why i keep checking in. I do not expect to find answers here, just experiences and opinions.
Posted 8/23/2022 6:50 PM (GMT 0)
I had sent Pravda's paper to my GI and had my appt with him this morning. I hadn't given him any indication of my thoughts on it ... just asked for his thoughts. This was a telephone appt so he couldn't see my body language either. This is was he said:

1) it was a poorly written paper in a sub par journal
2) there was no control group in the study Pravda did with his patients
3) when Pravda scoped the patients he only did a flex sig so he wouldn't have been able to see beyond the left side which is all the further the special enemas reached leaving questions about the health of the entire colon in the patients who had pancolitis. My doc said he's not surprised the left side of the colon looked good with the meds that are in the enema. [note -- my doc was referring to the initial 36 patients -- not the 1 patient Pravda said he did a follow up colonoscopy years later]
4) most of the paper was basically a science class with no real therapeutic value
5) thought the paper was just a marketing gimmick to sell Pravda's proprietary enemas and oral treatment
6) if there was anything of substance to the treatment a pharmaceutical company would have snatched it up by now
7) it's not likely harmful but it's not the cutting edge of a new path in treatments for UC and is definitely not a "cure" based on the information that was provided

When he was done speaking I told him I was happy because if he had said it was brilliant I would have had to look for a new doctor -- he lol'd at that

I know this will likely make people angry -- just reporting what he told me.
Posted 8/23/2022 7:39 PM (GMT 0)
But did he spend 3+ hours reading and trying to understand the paper...?

Just kidding... thanks for this... basically confirmed what several of us have been saying on this thread.
Posted 8/23/2022 7:55 PM (GMT 0)
I think what most “skeptics” here have been trying to say is just to urge caution in saying “this is THE root cause and THE solution” when nothing has been proved yet. All it takes is inserting a “possible” or “potential “ in there and that makes alll the difference. I’m all for finding a simple solution for UC. I hope like hell there is one. Lots of times skepticism comes from a place of years and years of suffering and having hope dashed time and again. Directing tirades against others for their skepticism is misplaced. Rudeness is not ever called for and it’s happened on both sides.

Post Edited (FlowersGal) : 8/23/2022 5:06:51 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 8/23/2022 8:00 PM (GMT 0)
CC...uve been had.....it shld be obvious what has happened here....ur GI immediately sent this paper to big pharma.....they immediately responded that this cld unbalance the 13% of ppl cured of colitis and the 70% of patients who did not respond to biologics...and affect their own profits....they then immediately told ur GI to respond to you to denounce the paper and claim all its findings are false and unproven.....its all a hoax to keep those 13% and 70% figures as is....as we speak now big pharma are meeting on Zoom around the world...and there's this lead pharma...u cant see his / her face ...but (s)he is stroking his / her cat and saying something in an east european accent like....."Dr Pravda, we've been expecting you"

#TrustNoOne
Posted 8/23/2022 11:46 PM (GMT 0)

Theanxiousaries said...
...


You're fine. There's no need to try and score enough points in order to receive support from anyone. You can always email moderators directly if you feel singled out...or...create an entire "A question for mods" thread I suppose.

CCinPA said...
if he had said it was brilliant I would have had to look for a new doctor


Sounds like you'd made your mind up before even consulting with your physician. I do question why he thinks openly published treatment guidance that can be compounded today, without consulting Dr. Pravda, is proprietary. I'm also not sure if a week is fast enough for a pharmaceutical company to reach out to Dr. Pravda and sponsor clinical trials. I will say I'm very fortunate to have patient guided treatment and to have the ability to take charge of my health. My doctors are still consulting with peers on what I've sent over, but I'm confident I'll be able to give this a shot and see how I do.

damo123 said...
[something inflammatory]


Those are bold words coming from someone who wasn't even aware of the independent studies referenced in Dr. Pravda's article until just the last page of this thread. Basically confirming Theanxiousaries's claims, and my suspicions that people either can't read, or don't want to.

You also turned the very essence of one of my posts, a call for better outcomes in ulcerative colitis patients, into an...

damo123 said...
argument

...which I've already said I'm not going to take part in.

The problem with a war on an idea is it'll never end. Are the studies too old, or is this all a fad? One side of your arguments is refuted, so you paradoxically push back a different way. I feel sorry for new members that encounter this echo chamber. I was fortunate enough to find a thread indexed on Google that contained useful contributions from mature folks, rather than these remarks from morally questionable people.
Posted 8/24/2022 12:27 AM (GMT 0)
The only morally questionable thing I've seen in this thread is a doctor who promotes himself - above others who work in the same field and write better quality papers - to have discovered a cure for colitis on the basis of one patient being in remission at T=14 years and 35 other patients not followed beyond 8 weeks. Together with no control (placebo) group for his treatment protocol.

Most people posting on here have good intentions. Just because you don't agree with them it does not make them villains with ulterior motives.
Posted 8/24/2022 12:38 AM (GMT 0)

poopydoop said...
The only morally questionable thing I've seen in this thread is a doctor who promotes himself


You mean like Dr. Crohn? You’ve already mentioned RIT articles that weren’t done by doctors named Jay Pravda. This is the circular argument I’m talking about. Just pretend your doctor recommends trying a cocktail of different drugs, every time Pravda is mentioned. It’ll save you from needing to read that name again.
Posted 8/24/2022 1:01 AM (GMT 0)
One of the things that I really have been wondering about ... Pravda did those patient studies more than 14 years ago. I had expected that in this new paper there would be some more recent or more examples of patient results and there wasn't.

Pravda does hold patents, or at least applied for patents for the enema. I have no idea how that works since he published the recipe.

My doc did say he wouldn't say it was snake oil, but he didn't think it was anything to get excited about. He didn't think it would cause harm, but he also didn't think it would do what it's being presented to do.
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