Vitamin K - Can it be?

Ok here me out and look at the info I found on this. I will try to keep it as simple as possible with the least amount of reading.
Vitamin K is synthesized by plants, and is found in highest amounts in green leafy vegetables because it is directly involved in photosynthesis.

Vitamin K is one vitamin that is made within the human body--by bacteria that live in the intestinal tract. Small amounts are found as well in the green leaves of spinach, kale, cabbage, and cauliflower and also in pork liver.

PB4,

Your B12 is at risk because you have crohns, you have crohns because your deficient in vit K. Thus, more vit K, cures crohns which in turn will cure B12....

thank you, thank you. Lesson of day. lol

Vit-K is own way mentioned in the literature that probiotics can help. It was not the main way.

I think the spinach/sunflower thing is more to do with anti-inflammatory properties than vit-K levels, but maybe a small vit-K benefit too.

But, this just not seem as earth shaking to me as it seems to have grabbed you. Am I missing something?

DB, The fact that most of us have taken anibiotics.. And that bacteria that live in the gut in what mostly creates Vitamin K? Also that a vitamin K deficieny can cause IBD? What did you not read what I posted? sorry but I have not seen anything posted yet about this so thought it was totally relevant..Sorry if you missed it.


Steve

I begin to see. I have not seen any research that Vit-K can CAUSE IBD. It is associated and cause/consequence relations are unclear. Perhaps this is why I did not get as excited as you did. I think you misunderstood the causal implications. You have confused correlation with causation.

I would get excited if someone posted a causal role of Vit-K in IBD. Or, even a causal role in putting IBD into remission. Sadly, we are not there yet.

While I don't rule out the possibility that Vit-K deficiency leads to IBD in genetically susceptible individuals (it is as plausible a trigger as many mentioned), what is known about IBD and Vit-K and the gut microbes point to it being a consequence.

1) We depend on gut microbes to make Vit-K for us, and with IBD there is seriously diminished and dysregulated gut microbes (i.e., less/missing makers).

2) We do not absorb Vit-K very well even when healthy, and an inflamed colon seems like it would absorb Vit-K even more poorly.

It would be interesting to see work on the amount of Vit-K available for absorption, of CD vs UC differences (because the latter group have healthy small intestines to absorb Vit-K), and any link between Vit-K and mucosal healing.

When they discuss vitamins, the most recent reviews of IBD and nutrition focus onthe free-radical scavenging of A,C, and E, as well as the immuno-modulating properties of D. Vit-K is not mentioned in the reviews.

I will do a check for specific Vit-K recent research.


----

p.s. Because I DID READ what you posted, I was puzzled.Nothing there mentions causality, and your causality assumption was not revealed until I asked - so please, less snark.

Post Edited (DBwithUC) : 11/15/2012 11:48:20 AM (GMT-7)

DB, Old mike has posted a link from a CD forum that has a great post about the relevance or the possibility of one. He explains it very well. I guess Vitamin K2 specifically was called the "forgotten nutrient". Have a look.

 DB sorry if I snarked I get excited...

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=35801

PB4- good find on Pubmed.

Steve

Post Edited (twiggs) : 11/15/2012 12:03:08 PM (GMT-7)

OK, quick literature search confirms that nobody has evidence that Vit-K deficiency is causal to IBD.

I found 3 recent articles about both Vit-K and colitis of interest, although there were plenty of articles on the absorbtion and bioactivity of Vit-K in general. Mostly they are trying to figure out how exactly Vit-K asct as an anti-inflammatory.

The 2nd and 3rd one suggest that once you have IBD, the associated Vit-K deficiency leads to low bone density desease (especially in CD).

The 1st one is the most interesting. It it very molecular biology and hard for me to follow the abstract, but it suggests that Vit-K may be a natural TNF-blocker. IF true, that seems a lot safer than biologics such as Remicade.

Essentially, they found compounds of Vit-K (i.e., metabolites and derivatives) that blocked the inflammatory response mouse models of colitis. While we generally think about inflammation as a result of UC, I tried to run with Steve's idea that Vit-K deficiency might lead to UC. It occurred to me that if at the very beginning before any inflammation when an environmental trigger interacts with genetic susceptibility, if the inflammation never happens, maybe the UC never develops - at least not that time.

So this would not so much be a theory that Vit-K deficiency causes IBD, as that Vit-K deficiency makes IBD easier to get started.

If this is true, maintaining good Vit-K (as well as other vitamins and dietary factors like fiber and PUFAs) would be especially important for anybody with relatives with IBD and/or having to take extended courses of antibiotics.



--------------------

Aoganghua, A., S. Nishiumi, et al. (2011). "Inhibitory effects of vitamin K-3 derivatives on DNA polymerase and inflammatory activity." International Journal of Molecular Medicine 28(6): 937-945.

Previously, we reported that vitamin K, (menadione, 2-methyl-1,4-naphthoquinone) (compound 2) inhibits the activity of human mitochondria] DNA polymerase gamma (pol gamma). In this study, we investigated the inhibitory effects (IEs) of vitamin K-3 and its derivatives, such as 1,4-naphthoquinone (compound 1) and 1,2-dimethyl-1,4-naphthoquinone (compound 3), on the activity of mammalian pols. Among compounds 1-3 (10 mu M for each), compound I was the strongest inhibitor of mammalian pols alpha and gimel, which belong to the B and X pol families, respectively, whereas compound 2 was the strongest inhibitor of human pol gamma, a family A pol. However, these compounds did not affect the activity of human pol kappa, a family Y pol. As we previously found a positive relationship between pol gimel inhibition and anti-inflammatory action, we examined whether these vitamin K-3 derivatives are able to inhibit inflammatory responses. Among the three compounds tested, compound I caused the greatest reduction in 12-O-tetradecanoylphorbol-13-acetate (TPA)-induced acute inflammation in mouse ears. In addition, in a cell culture system using RAW264.7 mouse macrophages, compound 1 displayed the strongest suppression of tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha production induced by lipopolysaccharide (LPS). In an in vivo mouse model of LPS-evoked acute inflammation, the intraperitoneal injection of compound 1 into mice suppressed TNF-alpha production in their peritoneal macrophages and serum. In an in vivo colitis mouse model induced using dextran sulfate sodium (DSS), the vitamin K-3 derivatives markedly suppressed DSS-evoked colitis. In conclusion, this study has identified several vitamin K-3 derivatives, such as compound 1, that are promising anti-inflammatory candidates.




Kuwabara, A., K. Tanaka, et al. (2009). "High prevalence of vitamin K and D deficiency and decreased BMD in inflammatory bowel disease." Osteoporosis International 20(6): 935-942.

Vitamin K and D deficiency and decreased bone mineral density (BMD) were highly prevalent in patients with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), especially Crohn's disease (CD). Dietary intakes of these vitamins, however, were above the Japanese adequate intakes in IBD patients, suggesting that malabsorption is the basis for hypovitaminosis K and D and decreased BMD. We have studied the possible involvement of vitamin K and D deficiency in the pathogenesis of decreased BMD in IBD. Seventy patients with IBD were evaluated for their BMD; plasma levels of vitamin K; phylloquinone (PK), menaquinone-7 (MK-7), and 25OH-D; serum PTH, protein induced by vitamin K absence (PIVKA-II), and undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) levels; and their food intake. Compared with ulcerative colitis (UC) patients, CD patients had significantly lower plasma vitamin K and 25OH-D concentrations; significantly higher serum levels of PTH, PIVKA-II, and ucOC; and significantly lower BMD scores at almost all measurement sites. More IBD patients were vitamin K deficient in bone than in liver. Multiple regression analyses revealed that low plasma concentrations of vitamin K and 25OH-D were independent risk factors for low BMD and that they were associated with the patients' fat intake, but not with their intake of these vitamins. IBD patients have high prevalence of decreased BMD and vitamin K and D deficiency probably caused by malabsorption of these vitamins.



Nakajima, S., H. Iijima, et al. (2011). "Association of vitamin K deficiency with bone metabolism and clinical disease activity in inflammatory bowel disease." Nutrition 27(10): 1023-1028.

Objective: Inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is a chronic inflammatory process in the digestive tract and patients with IBD develop osteopenia. Although vitamins K and D are important for maintaining bone health and inhibiting inflammation, their roles in patients with IBD are not clear. We investigated the roles of vitamins K and Din the bone health and inflammation in patients with IBD. Methods: Bone mineral density (BMD) of patients with IBD (Crohn's disease [CD], n = 47, and ulcerative colitis [UC], n = 40) was measured with dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry. Vitamin K and D levels of patients with IBD and healthy volunteers (n = 41) were evaluated by measuring serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin and 1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D, respectively. Clinical activity index was evaluated in patients with CD and UC. Results: BMD was low in patients with CD and UC. Serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin levels were significantly higher in patients with CD, but not with UC, compared with healthy subjects, indicating that bone vitamin K is insufficient in patients with CD. The levels of undercarboxylated osteocalcin were significantly correlated with the clinical activity index of CD, although they were not correlated with BMD. The levels of 1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D were significantly lower in patients with CD and UC than in healthy subjects. The levels of 1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D were inversely correlated with BMD in patients with UC and were not correlated with the clinical activity index of CD. Conclusion: Vitamins K and D are insufficient in patients with IBD. Insufficiency of vitamin K is suggested to be associated with inflammatory processes of CD. (C) 2011 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

I am on day 3,first day had adverse excess gas and poo,day 2 diminished gas took only half dose,todayjust took full dose 100mg,poo ok this am. I believe I am very difficient in K2 since the gut bacteria went crazy,
k is necessary for certain bacteria to grow.
In the interest of keeping info together I am cross posting this info to this thread from my K2 thread.
Old Mike


K1 from veggies/spinach
K2 MK4 from grass fed animal products
K2 MK7 from Natto bacterial fermentaion
K3 synthetic dont take it.

As for K2 we are not getting too much since there is a loss in the diet if animals are not eating grass or chicken eggs which are not pastured. Possible reason Paleo works if eating pastured animal products. Factory farming probably started sometime in the 1930's so suspect a loss of K2 in the diet since then.

Japan low but increasing incidence of UC since 70's,suspect western diet and less eating of traditional Japanese foods,might be going on.

Here is a general rundown on K.
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1040

Here is some confounding info on UC/K/iron/Vitamin E.
They are saying that oxidized vitamin E inhibits bacterial vitamin K in the gut.
Spinach has lots of iron and K1,if this interacts with your vitamin E stores, this might be a possible mechanism of action of the spinach.
http://gut.bmj.com/content/27/6/695.full.pdf

Will keep looking but don't expect to find much. I have taken lots of K1 through
the years,does not help if at all for the UC.
Old Mike
Powerfull antioxidant.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9354587
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/feb00-report.html
http://www.gutresearch.com/VitaminK.pdf
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Study-gives-vitamin-K-anti-inflammation-boost

Autoimmune
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16146654

Vitamin K2 and D are linked,for calcium deposits,what else might
be going on that they dont know about. We all know there is a vitamim D
link with UC, perhaps low k2 intake might be a problem,where the vitamin D
does not work right.
http://www.drjessicaseaton.com/Chiropractic_in_West_Los_Angeles/Vitamin_D3_(and_K2).html
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/07/16/fatsoluble-vitamin-shown-to-reduce-coronary-calcification.aspx

More
http://www.fridayharborholistichealth.com/understanding-vitamin-k/

Also interesting to not that antibiotics may have wiped out our vitamin k
bacteria in the gut, Natto might help,also read VSL3 has some bacteria that
promote vitamin K.

UC k and d link.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22914505
This uses K3,not advised but there is a link.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21837358
More
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21482072
Vitamin E low with low K in IBD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3976564
Inflammation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378261
Vitamin K and bacteria growth in the gut,MAP and others need it.
This is from early work,very good read.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC281544/pdf/microrev00014-0005.pdf

I have from life extension, got it today it has K1,2,3 and 4 in it

I ate spinach for the UC on coumadin. I tested weekly and told them to increase it and compensate for the vitamin k coming in a small daily spinach salad. Worked great, done in half the time after showing MRV to both doctors.

Warfarin has a great history. It has been used to kill rats. Internal bleeding makes them thirsty so they go outside and die. Very convenient.

Old Mike any new improvement on vitamin K

Vitamin K won't fix UC. Patients with compromised flora in their gut are likely to be low in K, especially K2, but low K2 has never been shown to be a cause of UC.

That said, K2 is a very important nutrient and is often severely deficient in people. I'm talking K2 not the K you get in spinach. The best source of K2 is high vitamin butter oil. If you do take supplements, make sure to take the MK-4 variety which converts to K2 not the MK-7.

Mackster, OMG! LOL